I disagree with this premise. I think games like age of empires and StarCraft had mass appeal and success. They brought in audiences who don’t normally like games, and broadly were well received by young, old, and different genders. Especially age of empires 2.
Modern RTS games are just (mostly) sloppy, unfinished, cashgrabs with no vision. They suffer the most from the transition to 3d as well. If a major studio actually put work and time into a polished, 2d, isometric, RTS that wasn’t solely focused on being an esport, I think there is a major vacuum for them to fill.
Hell, starcraft created the concept of a professional gamer being a thing. To say that RTS games dont have popular appeal is just outright wrong.
3D isnt a bad thing though, C&C Generals did it fantastically.
Definitely! Just to clarify, I think that good RTS games make good esports, but fundamentally on the basis is being carefully made, captivating, and nuanced. I think an overt focus on developing an RTS as a esport tends to lead to low risk, streamlined designs which while fun, lack some of the staying power that older, more established titles have. Perhaps, I’m disillusioned about the genre in general, and that’s not the case!
Also, yeah 3d can be good, but I do think that Sprite based graphics are easy to parse and very pleasing to look at. I wish we had a healthy balance of the 2. 2d also tends to look more, evergreen, with 3d RTS looking dated on release due to the quantity of animated units. Though, strong art design would help offset this.
That doesn’t really contradict their premise about making modern RTS. StarCraft and Age of Empires 2 are ancient at this point. An entire generation of kids has grown up since they came out.
I don’t think the fact that you could make a successful mainstream RTS way back then really says much about whether you could make one in 2024.
Starcraft 2, at this point, is 2 years Older than Starcraft 1 was when it was released.
Or Command & Conquer, which didn’t had as strong of a competitive community comparatively, but were very successful through their fun story campaigns. Also, there’s some pretty successful real time 4X titles too that very much hit mainstream audiences, despite being even more of a niche due to their scale. I think a lot of RTS games often tried too much to compete with the esport niche too, trying to replace the established titles, which is kind of an impossible task. Doing an RTS that doesn’t aim for this goal can still be successful however, if one puts the focus on that instead of targeting unreachable heights.
A lot of the competitive RTS crowd transitioned to MOBAs and it’s hard to scratch that itch with an old-school RTS now. Having the full offline and online package was key of the time when those games were popular and you don’t get that when the competitive space has moved on.
But you have a point. RTSs at their peak were super triple-A stuff, with mind blowing execution and production value for the time. Point and click adventures have a bit of the same problem, they used to be these massive technical showpieces and as a mid-size or indie thing they are a tougher sell when the modern equivalent of investment is going to absolutely insanely huge games in other genres. Even when a triple-A studio does one of those you tend to not get as much of a massive investment, and when you do (say, Total War: Warhammer, or even Manor Lords) they do see success. It’s just never going to be the same because you’re never going to call your friends over to show them Warcraft 2 running on your PC.
I mean, StarCraft was mentioned in the article. He just doesn’t think RTS is big enough for AAA dev companies when they’re all trying to sell tens of millions of games
That’s not to say RTSes can never be any kind of hit: StarCraft 2 sold many millions of copies, Bruno noted, and Crate Entertainment only needs to sell a million to make “an OK return,” he said. The series has also been an esports phenomenon. But for a company like Blizzard, he doesn’t think that’s enough anymore, which is why the developer stopped making new RTSes, or at least seems to have for now.
fact is nothing ever seems to be enough for these companies now.
they will sometimes make a smash hit and proceed to pump it full of microtransactions, then lay off half the staff.
also selling tens of millions of games is unrealistic when the hardware people run them on went through years of terrible availability, and they keep pushing the requirements.
im honestly stumped on what the fuck they are expecting at this point.
To Tiberian Sun and StarCraft were my obsession for years. SC2 was pretty awesome, but I would not trust Blizzard to make another good RTS at this point.
Are we going to pretend Age of Empires 4 doesn’t exist? The last expansion outsold every single one from AoE2.
I didn’t realize that it sold so well! That’s good to hear it is successful. I’m not over the moon with the game, but I did get 30 hours or so out of it, and don’t think it’s bad at all. My biggest annoyance was that it felt too similar to AOE 2, which I saw as the superior game at launch. Still, that’s a bit of bias from an old gamer, lol. I think it’s fun!
According to steamDB AoE IV has between 1.27 and 2.5 million owners. That is a good number, but not mainstream. At the very least not mainstream in the definition used in the article.
I mean, RTS is never going to be that kind of mainstream again, it’s too complicated and can’t be monetized in the way that something like a shooter can.
The problem with modern RTS games is that developers don’t really make proper RTS games. You don’t see C&C or SC anymore, instead you get a mixture of tactical missions, RPG levelling and other shit. I don’t want to play stealth infiltration missions and level up my hero, that’s not RTS.
Yup, if I want to level up my units, I’ll research upgrades for my units. That requires resources, not combat. I honestly never saw the point of a mechanic or medic in C&C, because if I won a battle, I would usually go on to destroy their infra, not heal up to go again.
Starcraft got this right.
One thing that may be interesting here is a “drill” feature, where you lock up a unit for some time and expend some resources to get a higher tier unit. That way you can spam units early on and replace them later for cheaper, but the total cost would be higher than building that unit initially.
I bought the C&C collection because I loved it when I was younger. EA fucked up C&C3 with an update that turned it into a constant zerg rush by the AI and Red Alert 3 has the same bullshit AND a shitty AI co-commander blowing through resources while doing fuck all. There’s no strategy, just frantic clicking and attack alerts.
Warzone 2100 did the RPG elements as much as was needed in a RTS. Sure individual units gained XP,.and they carried over from one mission to the next. You could also recycle units to upgrade their chassis. That was it. You could also just churn out basic troops and just throw away armies if you wanted.
Wasn’t that going on as far back as WC3? If I wanted an RPG I would have bought one.
The RTS genre will never be mainstream
StarCraft: exists
Lmao what the fuck is this guy even talking about
Which one? Sc1 is still a mainstream game in Korea played religiously. Sc2 on the other hand is losing players since it didn’t hook people the same way (impossible to do, people only have one childhood to waste nostalgia on). That’s understandable though since there hasn’t been new content for it for a long time.
And then you find out that a premium mount in WoW made more money than the entirety of Wings of Liberty and you kinda understand why they haven’t made a new one.
I’d actually be OK with a SC game that has tons of cosmetic paid DLC. Pump money into the game to keep them developing it, and add some visual variety on the map.i stead of fighting against 3 Teran teams that all look the same, you’d have 1 team that looks like zombies or a football team or other wacky shit.
Battle for Middle Earth was my favourite game ever probably or at least among top 3. Honestly between the 4x warhammer total war and rts bfme I think bfme was slightly more fun.
It’s a real shame the genre is so forgotten.
RTS is more organic genre without incessant thinking about numbers and save scumming while 4x always feels like Math.
Every game session of RTS game is slightly different even with the same map and enemy parameters providing for a way more replayability value and unpredictable chaos that you need to manage in real time. It’s much more engaging this way.
It’s still about numbers under the hood but more organic while 4x feels like an excel spreadsheet sometimes. There are less solutions to victory, sometimes even only one proper, predetermined before playing and that’s boring.
Another gem was Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War: Dark Crusade. They made 2 sequels but none captured the gameplay of the first one. For some unknown reason they scrapped everything what made the original good in the second game, making it completely different. The third one was an attempt to go back to the mechanics of the first one but it was mediocre.
And you cannot play it anymore due to the BS drm crap. I don’t need a remake, just let me play it somehow
Games of that era are also just to big to easily pirate. A SNES ROM? Ezpz. But a full DVD game? Not without torrenting
I think this is all you need nowadays, it’s one click install I think. https://www.moddb.com/mods/battle-for-middle-earth-patch-222/downloads/patch-222
Hell, I will give it a go myself tomorrow
I played it quite recently I think the community has solved that problem, even online iirc it worked. Don’t remember the links though. It’s still fun and a good escape when warhammer gets stale.
I do remember it was bashed for drm on release though. I also remember these things called no-dvd cracks you pulled form the shady websites with disgusting porn ads to not have to have the disc in your drive at all times. Also avast antivirus shenanigans. I wouldn’t say it was good old times but it all had certain flavour though I probably wouldn’t want to go back in time haha.
Gaming is generally in an amazing place now with an exception of few things lost along the way one of which is aaa RTS and another early Bethesda rpg genre, they totally changed their games starting with oblivion.
You know, they said, ‘An RTS is like PC-only by nature, why would you work on a single platform game when you could have made something multiplatform and another genre?’
Bruno thinks that’s because big publishers are hoping for lightning-in-a-bottle hits that return 10 times their investment—“When you’re operating at that scale, you want to build something that has the potential to sell 30 million copies,” he said—and he doesn’t think the RTS genre is ever going to produce that kind of success. If it did, he’s skeptical the game in question would really be an RTS as he defines it.
So, first, even if the audience is limited, you can make a game that has a 10x return on investment if you can do the game on a smaller investment. A big publisher doesn’t intrinsically need to do big-budget games.
Second, the genre grew up on the PC. And it often has conventions tuned to a PC platform. Precise selection, use of groups off a keyboard. But it seems to me that it’s not impossible to produce new controls. The roguelike genre also was developed on a PC, and had a lot of conventions that were not friendly to other platforms, like use of many keyboard buttons that one would need to tap. But Shattered Pixel Dungeon ( !pixeldungeon@lemmy.world ) is a pretty good mobile adaption of the genre.
Based on this chart, video game revenue on the PC is relatively-strong compared to consoles in historical terms. What’s new is mobile.
According to that, in annual game revenue, consoles are about $30B, the PC is about $45B, and mobile – the newcomer – is $101B.
So, first-off, the PC is a quarter that. I’m not sure that it’s unreasonable to do a game that targets a quarter of the market. There are lots of genres that target only some of those platforms. First-person shooters aren’t gonna be all that great on mobile either.
Secondly, there have been console RTS releases. Off the top of my head, Supreme Commander also came out for the XBox 360. That series tends to be less of a clickfest, but it clearly means that doing an RTS on console is doable.
Thirdly, I think that console controllers are the hardest to adapt to that. I think that it’s probably pretty reasonable to do a touch interface. And if you can do PC and mobile, that’s more than three-quarters of the market.