Title reads like at ad, but this is a new way to reach energy independence. I actually have a small EcoFlow device and it’s pretty good for the price.
I hope this tech can be made available in the US soon.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
These DIY systems from EcoFlow, Anker, and others became very popular around Europe over the last few years as energy costs soared amid steadily decreasing solar and battery prices.
I also have six EcoFlow smart plugs attached to things like the washing machine, coffee maker, and home theater projector that tell the PowerStream to send more or less power.
But importantly, I learned a lot about my family’s energy consumption habits and how much power 800W of haphazardly installed solar panels can produce under a weak northern sun.
Importantly, I have gained a degree of energy independence in this uncertain world — and making regular use of an expensive solar generator that was otherwise just waiting for the next road trip or natural disaster.
The hardest part in setting up the PowerStream is doing the math to ensure your solar panels are wired up properly in series or parallel, especially when maxing out the system like I did.
So I should just feed enough solar power into the home to cover my base load during the day and send any excess to the EcoFlow battery for use when the sun goes down.
The original article contains 2,051 words, the summary contains 192 words. Saved 91%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Wow that’s interesting. I hate how much power my pool eats up in the summer, I’ve been looking for something economical to help run it off of clean energy since the pump runs during peak solar hours anyway.
You can do that today with their setup I think. You would need to plug the pump into one of their batteries and run their solar panel to the battery. You’d also put the battery on grid power.
The article is focused on an inverter that pushes energy back to the grid, something we don’t have yet at this market level.
If you just need the energy for the pool, a small setup without battery is all you need. Saves you half the price. Panels and inverters are around 900€ in Germany. Putting a battery on it makes another 1,200€ and it makes sense only, if you need power in the evening.
Yeah I’m trying to figure out what makes sense for me. I suppose a system with a battery in my home would be nice.
Yeah, non-USA for this atm, as much fun as it would be to plug such a system into an apartment.
I believe that the US requires that a direct-feed system has to plug into a physical kill switch setup to prevent back-feed of power during an outage.
Still pretty neat, though!
They don’t follow the grid frequency because the EU or US regulations require it, they follow the grid frequency because physics demands it.
Interesting - which other generators for example wouldn’t you want starting up?
Also in the US regular 120v outlets are fed from 1 of 2 transformer legs. If you back fed power through a 120v outlet, roughly half of the circuits in your home would function and the others would be dead.
And disclaimer: no one should do this, but when the transfer switch disconnects from the grid, would it work to jump say a breaker across the L1-L2 hots to share that 120v backfeed over both?
Clearly the 240v appliances won’t work in this configuration, but the fridge on one leg and the internet on the other will still work ok, right?
Again, no one try this - it’s just a thought exercise.
Yes, it will actually work. I know it’s very much not to code, but when we lost power for over 10 days, I did this to keep our furnace running and us from freezing to death since it was -10F out.
I only have a small 120V generator, but hooked both legs to hot and backfed via our EV charger’s outlet, since its a 50A circuit. Like you said, nothing 240V worked, but that little 3kW generator did a great job powering basically the whole house with no issues.
That winter was definitely a big driver for me to get a backup battery system so our solar could power the house.
That’s great, but it doesn’t matter unless it has the physical cutoff that’s required to bring that kind of system up to the current electrical code for such a system.
Plug-in systems are built around a microinverter that feeds solar energy back into the home via a standard wall jack.
What the actual fuck?
The PowerStream has three proprietary ports: one that connects to your MC4 solar panels
Disqualified.
Yeah. My grandfather (former electrician and electrical inspector) had a specific outlet he’d plug a gas generator in to back feed power into the house. This was in the 80s and 90s.
He also pointed out that he turned the main off so it did not back feed into the grid and power lines that a lineman is expecting to not be live.
Thanks for the info, very interesting!
I wonder if just plugging a power source in a socket would work in a more modern setting?
Had all electricity redone last year, there was some crazy stuff from the fifties, a hot line going everywhere, just plug into it and ground it, power everywhere 😵💫. Guess I could have plugged some power in anywhere (cutting off the mains).
Now there are differential and fuses for every applience etc.
From the article:
And when there’s a power outage, the PowerStream will turn off automatically to ensure there’s no electricity in the wires in order to protect line workers from shock. The PowerStream will only turn back on when the grid power returns.
Yes as your granddad points out, you can’t just plug a power source into any old outlet at any time. Selling a system like this on Amazon to apartment dwellers seems to encourage just that behavior.
Your grandfather’s extra outlet for the alternate feed was the other half of a switch that flipped over when the mains power died. It shuts off the power connection to the house by flipping over and ensures no power goes back over the line, among other things. We have these - albeit the size of a washing machine - in really big datacenters.
If it has anti islanding at least it’s unlikely to be a shock hazard.
That said are there any other concerns I’m missing?
Depends on electrical code which depends on, most of all, your standard plugs. In Germany Schuko is deemed non-optimal, but acceptable, for up to 800W.
…no issues regarding exposed prongs, if the inverter doesn’t see AC to sync to it doesn’t output anything. It’s not a dumb spinny magnet generator we’re talking about here.
Most people don’t have an outlet on their balcony, though, and weather-proofing the thing is an issue in any case so while you’re at it you can just as well put in a proper Wieland outlet. 20 bucks or so, the expensive part will be the electrician not the outlet.
That happens quite a bit in a lot of areas. It sounds stupid but your toaster does not care where the electricity it is using comes from.
As long as the sine waves are in sync with each other then you have nothing to worry about.
It’s probably not standard in America because the technology is newer and the regulations haven’t caught up.
2 problems….
-
If you forget to turn off the mains, it could really make a lineman unhappy.
-
Most of these setups require a reprimand dangerous “ suicide cord”
You’re also likely to repeatedly trip whatever breaker that outlet is connected to unless it’s a big one like you’d have for a central AC unit, but then you’d likely also know enough to have a proper transfer switch.
I know enphase micro inverters have “anti-islamding” tech that disables output when they lose grid connection. I would expect any reputable manufacturer to also have the same tech.
I don’t expect that for backup generators, but the proper way for them is via a transfer switch. You can wire in a properly made cable instead of a suicide cable. The transfer switch would prevent the inlet connector to the house from ever being live. (And since it is a proper cord from the generator, there would be no exposed ends coming from it.)
The first problem is solved by line sensing technology. If there is not power coming in and off of the switch then the inverter will not pump energy back into the system, at least on the ones that are not $12 cheap Chinese junk off of taobao.
And rather than suicide cords they generally have an IEC connector (standard rhombusy shaped computer power connector) on one end and a normal prong on the other.
But you are right that it is dangerous and not recommended to anyone, especially the people that are not smart enough to take the appropriate concerns and considerations into mind before using it.
Whole house generators have been around for a long time and they are usually wired, at the junction, into a few specific lines to essential appliances like refrigerators because it’s hard to produce as much current as the grid on your own, and you want to spend what you can generate on site wisely. Trying to power your whole house through some bedroom outlet is not going to work well. Your TV will sit there sucking some of that power listening for your remote to turn it on while your lights will flicker and your fridge will chug chug chug and not stay cold.
You realise it’s new tech and probably needs a proprietary connection?
Did you disqualify ebikes too when they appeared?
Plug-in systems are built around a microinverter that feeds solar energy back into the home via a standard wall jack.
What the actual fuck?
What’s wrong with that? That’s how basically any balcony solar system works.
The cables in your walls are designed for a certain maximum current before they start to heat up. This current is limited by your breaker.
Now if you introduce a plug in solar setup your current is limited by your maximum breaker capacity + whatever your solar setup can generate.
So if I’d use the specs from the article and apply it to a normal dutch home situation: 16A breaker, + 800W at 230V, which means ~3.5A = 19.5A max. which is probably still fine for short durations.
But now some genius doesn’t read the fine print and hooks up 2 or 3 on the same circuit. There is no electrician that tells him that’s dangerous because it’s all self installed and he doesn’t know any better. And all of a sudden you are up to 26.5A and you got glowing, smoking wires in your walls…
But now some genius doesn’t read the fine print and hooks up 2 or 3 on the same circuit. There is no electrician that tells him that’s dangerous because it’s all self installed and he doesn’t know any better. And all of a sudden you are up to 26.5A and you got glowing, smoking wires in your walls…
Ok sure, that makes sense. This might actually be an issue.
Also, emergency service hazard. The PV won’t turn off if firefighters take out the mains, which makes a house potentially inaccessible during an emergency.
Your breaker will pop. Just like if you were to run a hair dryer on each outlet.
Most European residential electric systems operate at 240v, versus 120v in the US, which means you can only backfeed a US outlet with half the power you could in a European outlet. That alone makes this system half as useful for US applications.
If one of these were made for the US market it would obviously be configured to work at the US mains voltage and frequency. (Europe is 50hz, US is 60).
Your home’s power input is also 240 volts in the US, regardless of being split into two 120 volt rails at the breaker box. It would be trivial to hook up a 240 volt system if you really wanted to, albeit not through one of your regular 5-15/5-20 outlets. You’d have to do it via a dryer outlet or something.
Watts are watts. If the unit is capable of feeding 800 watts into your home’s electrical system, the voltage is irrelevant provided it can supply sufficient amps. A normal US household circuit is 15 amps, so a hypothetical US version of this thing would have to supply ~6-2/3 amps at 120v rather than ~3-1/3 amps at 240v. No big deal. It’s not even close to maxing out a single residential circuit on either continent.
Just want to post a pic of a 20a 220v US outlet for those who don’t know about it.
It fits in a standard box, so you don’t have to use a dryer plug if someone wanted to feed power back in through a outlet. (Of course with a device designed to feed in safely.)
Just to expand, here’s a list of typical 240V appliances in a typical American home:
- Furnace/Heat Pump
- Air Conditioning
- Electric Range/Stove
- Electric clothes Dryer
And some homes have:
- Hot Tub/Spa
Don’t conflate 120V/15A standard outlets with not having 240V at all. All homes have 240V or high power appliances wouldn’t function.
Your home’s power input is also 240 volts in the US
It’s not actually 230V in Europe, it’s 400V. Between each pair of the three phases, that is, between phase and neutral there’s 230V. (If there’s a neutral and you don’t create it locally, different topic).
…but I’d actually have different doubts about using the whole thing in the US: Your plugs. Schukos aren’t meant for the purpose and only code for up to 800W when used to backfeed. That’s almost 1/5th of their 1 hour continuous rating. With those flimsy tinfoil plugs you have you’re going to need special outlets, or hard-wire them.
Why is there always at least one European in these threads misunderstanding how North American power works?
