voting 3rd party
not voting also sends a strong message
Pretty much just had this conversation. Except my point was if you want further left, then you have to give Dems consistent victories. Because when they lose they go to the center to find votes. Remember Dems have had all 3 (house, Senate, presidency) for only 4 years of the last 24 years.
Well said sir
Left wing people walked away from the Democrats after 1968, and they had every righteous reason to. Did the Democrats suddenly start embracing actual leftism as a winning strategy as a result? Did a viable third party emerge? Did non electoral activism (much more powerful at the time, like a massive nationwide movement) finally take hold and upend the system to bring about real, sustained change?
Not exactly. We went, in that time, from “great society” and 1-income families who owned their home and sent kids to college, and the civil rights act and all that stuff, to Reagan -> Clinton -> Bush and the fuckin apocalypse that’s brought us the current corporate hellscape. The reality of working life in today’s America would be unrecognizable to most (white) people in the 1960s. The Democrats, after 24 years of losing elections (ironically enough, losing them by fielding leftist candidates like McGovern, McCarthy, and Carter), finally tacked hard to the right and started being contenders again, but we lost a lot of ground and we’re only just now even starting to undo the damage. The party of JFK and Carter became the party of Clinton and Obama.
I actually think modern left wing people are aware of how terrifying Trump is, and would vote for Biden even if he wasn’t a significant step up from the low bar that is the modern Democrats. But yes, the drumbeat of MAGA imposters and the occasional confused leftist saying that if we just stop voting then everything will find a way to work itself out is certainly a thing that exists.
(ironically enough, losing them by fielding leftist candidates like McGovern, McCarthy, and Carter),
And when Gore and Hillary Clinton stuck their head a little bit left on climate change, they lost. And people wonder why Dems go to the center to find voters.
I have no particular love for either of the Clintons but I’m still sad about Gore. Between the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, real action on climate change before it was too late, and the underregulation that led to the 2008 financial crash, the whole fuckin world would be different if he’d been allowed into office after he won the election.
Gore won, and Hillary didn’t lose because of her views on climate change.
Dems are bad at politics, so they “go to the center” chasing republicans. They simply don’t realize they’re already a right wing party, and are chasing the extremist republicans towards far right fascism. Or more likely, they just don’t care so long as the corporate donor money keeps flowing in.
The greatest expansion of Rights in American history came in a period where Democrats had a very strong string of victories. From FDR to LBJ Democrats dominated in this country, it was also the period in which basically everything we consider the Cornerstone of our nation was developed. It’s also the period that the conservatives are trying to roll back as hard as humanly possible.
that’s at a time when democrats were republicans and republicans were democrats; things change and so do political parties and whitewashing like this suggests either shallow understanding or willful misrepresentation.
It absolutely wasn’t. This is a time when the new deal was created. This is the time when the American middle class was created. Social Security. Civil Rights Act. Voting Rights Act. All during this period thanks to the Democrats. The Republicans who left the Democratic party are those that left because they didn’t like what the Democratic party was doing. The idea that both parties completely swapped places one day is an infantile understanding of that scenario.
Democrats were never Republicans or vice versa. Prior to 1964 both parties had a diverse balance of Bigots. Democrats having a large contingent of racist southern Dixiecrats. Republicans had also long been the party of fascists and Nazi sympathizers. What happened post 1964 was not a party or ideological switch per se. Democrats just ditched the bigots courting a much bigger potential voting block. Republicans having lost the chance to court the same voting block instead courted the bigots fleeing the Democratic Party. It was a concentration of bigots. Not a change of ideology.
And during those four years they only had a super majority that could overcome the GOPs automatic use of the filibuster for a very short period of time when Independents caucused with the Dems, and even then there were some holdouts that watered down the best parts of what they were able to get through.
It didn’t work in 1968. It didn’t work in 1980. It didn’t work in 1984. It didn’t work in 1988. It didn’t work in 2000. It didn’t work in 2016. It didn’t work in 2020…
Yeah because they’re an idiot. If you actually want to get leftists in power, the answer is to start sharpening your knives. Replace Dems with leftists in your local elections. Organize for ranked choice voting and electoral reform. Work alongside your local labor unions to generate support for pro-labor, non-establishment politicians for Senators and House Representatives.
We can keep the Democrats in power until the time comes, but there’s no hope for the party. It’s far more likely for the Dems to cannibalize the Republican party after the MAGA movement explodes than for them to ever reform into a serious leftist party. If we want one, we’ll have to make it ourselves.
The Left needs to study up on what the Moral Majority did back in the 1970s.
Both Parties have local clubhouses where they decide local matters; who is going to run for dog catcher and should we put a STOP sign on Main Street? If the normal turnout for a meeting was twenty people, the Moral Majority would show up with 50. It didn’t cost them an arm and a leg, and they quietly stole power from big shots like Nelson Rockefeller.
start actually showing up where it will make a difference
I’m afraid you missed my whole point. Dems can’t go left when they keep losing elections. When they lose elections, they go to the center to find votes.
If you want Dems to go left, give them consistent and overwhelming victories.
That’s some abused spouse logic. Keep rewarding the people abusing your trust? Maybe they’ll recognize you this time? Maybe the reason they always go to the right is because they don’t think the left will stop voting for them. Maybe they just don’t care. Either way it makes no sense to reward that behavior.
Maybe the reason they always go to the right is because they don’t think the left will stop voting for them.
Maybe it’s because Dems have had all 3 (house, senate, presidency) for a measly 4 years of the last 24 years. If you want to go back further then it’s 6 years out of the last 44 years. That’s right, Dems have had control for a measly 6 years out of the last 44 fucking years.
When they don’t have control of all 3 (house, senate, presidency), they need to negotiate with the GOP to pass anything. And you wonder why they have to meet in the middle when they don’t have power? The GOP even shut down the government under Obama.
And when they lose elections (do the math, they’ve lost control for 20 years out of the last 24 years. Or 38 years out of the last 44 years.) when they lose elections, they go to the center to find votes. Because that’s where the voters are. Every time they try to move a little left (Gore, Hilary Clinton) they lose. So what does the next guy do? He goes to the center because that’s where the votes go.
You desperately need to learn what’s going on.
So what do you do if you want things to go left? Give Dems consistent and overwhelming victories. Let them know that they can go left without losing like Gore and Hilary Clinton did.
So we should vote for them because they’re out of touch with so much of the country that they’re ineffective?
Clinton was not a move to the left! The Clinton wing is the right wing of the Democrats. Both Clintons, are the prime example of the Democrats being the Republican party of 8 years ago. And Gore would have been a continuation of Bill. Trump being the other candidate is the only reason she isn’t seen as a right wing candidate. A lot of her liabilities, particularly with battleground states, in 2016 was her being the champion of every right wing policy an appreciable amount of Democrats signed on to.
Remember Dems have only had all 3 (house, Senate, presidency) for 4 years of the last 24 years.
And when you take it to a filibuster-proof majority they have had even less control than that.
Filibuster proof majority for 4 months out of the last 44 years. Not 4 years, 4 months.
Yep. If we want far left, we need to do what the far right did. Vote consistently and persistently for wing candidates and then vote for the extreme when they chance a run.
Anyone pretending this is bad is a short sighted fool at best. We will never magically get left wing extremists. They need a foundation of left wing to build off and that means compromise and frankly if you’re against this compromise you’re not a leftist, you’re an idealist idiot that will be played.
Except that is the opposite of how the Right works. Contrary to what Liberals tell themselves, Republican voters need to be wooed, Democrat voters fall in line. If a national Republican candidate isn’t anti-abortion, the evangelicals might not show up, if they aren’t anti-tax and anti-welfare, they loose “business Republicans”, and they need to scaremonger about things such as immigration to rile up other parts of their base. That is why you don’t have every Republican presidential candidate saying things like “Look, we have to appeal to moderate Democrats. That is why we have to expand welfare, access to abortion, and make it easier for immigrants to come in. If you believe in conservative values, he is still the lesser evil than the Democrat, despite being pro-welfare and immigration, and you only have two choices”
You are reversing the causality as why Republicans don’t have the same level of “Vote Red no mater who” and voter shaming and have to keep moving right to keep their base engaged.
Your reality bubble is incompatible with the rest of the world’s. Republicans need to be placated. There is no need to follow through. They always blame others.
Your attempt at casing the democrats as the same thing is the basis for bothsideism. All you need to do is respond with some whataboutism to determine the thickness of your bubble
“Pro-democracy conservatives” in an antifascist coalition, y’all crack me up sometimes.
Some Republican Secretaries of State, Mike Pence, military leaders, conservatives in the Justice Department, and similar not-real-inspiring-politically people were some of the most important ones who put the brakes on Trump’s previous attempt at a for-real fascist takeover. Without them, I think there is an excellent chance that it would have worked, and we’d be currently living in a society which doesn’t have functioning elections or protections for political speech in media or on the internet.
I do understand that our elections and our media right now are not fully free. But that doesn’t mean every point on that spectrum is the same. People on the left sometimes like to say Reagan or Bush or Trump 1 or Obama or Biden are so oppressive that it all might as well be fascism, but people who lived through real totalitarian rule further down on the spectrum would tell you that no, no it is certainly not.
Any of those Never-Trump Republicans going to vote for Biden? They seem to be very silent.
Check out The Bulwark. It’s basically a bunch of people who still consider themselves conservatives but exclusively vote Democrat because Republicans are insane and/or fascists.
And mad props to them for going against the cult. They’re still moist likely regressive assholes, but they’re principled regressive assholes and I can respect that.
Eh. This describes my Dad, I guess. Life time “fiscal conservative” that voted Republican his entire life except 2016 and on. Possibly 2008 too, he was outraged at Palin and the Tea Party.
They exist.
But he was never a republican for the social conservatism side of things. Never watched Fox News or Rush Limbaugh or any of that garbage. And votes blue down ticket too because he accepts that the entire party is corrupted now.
This is exactly why I can respect older, actual, conservatives and not the hate/fear driven fox viewers like my own father…
The older conservatives generally came to their conclusions in some ways “on their own” while current magas are just being emotionally manipulated and propagandized like crazy…
Obligatory: I FUCKING HATE PROPAGANDISTS!
I’ve never voted in an election where I wasn’t voting for policies I disagree with.
These kids need better civics education so they know we don’t get nice things in America.
The only illusion is that genocide was ever not an American policy. Talk to a Native American about it.
The MAGA had slowly coming into view *chefs kiss *
I’m looking at my calendar and wondering, it’s not November right? It’s still June, or isn’t it? As an outsider, why are American leftists basically being called fascist enablers when they are only protesting and demanding reasonable, better policies? And yes, they leverage their only political power they have in the USA, their vote, in June months before the election, to get better policies. Wow what an undemocratic move of them.
Now they are demonized for it, at the same time I’ve seen nothing here last week when Biden enacted a right wing immigration law with an executive order. So it’s okay to try to sway republicans, even though the GOP has racist views on lock as their USP.
It’s like they are Schrödingers leftists: powerful enough to prevent Biden from being reelected and it’s totally their fault if Trump wins, not the democratic party, but not powerful enough to receive any compromises because they are such a small voter base and so radical with their demands of stopping a genocide and protecting illegal immigrants.
I’m far left. Anti capitalist. Anti authoritarian. But, there are groups on the left or masking of leftists very heavily pushing people not to vote for joe biden in the upcoming elections. They, whether real leftists or not, are not just protesting. I don’t love joe biden. I didn’t even vote for him the first time. I knew he would win my state and voted 3rd party. But mass rhetoric to protest vote for no one or someone else risks leaving us with donald trump.
? And yes, they leverage their only political power they have in the USA, their vote, in June months before the election, to get better policies. Wow what an undemocratic move of them.
Yes, congratulations, you have suddenly become aware that building support for an election starts slightly sooner than a week before election day.
It’s like they are Schrödingers leftists: powerful enough to prevent Biden from being reelected and it’s totally their fault if Trump wins, not the democratic party, but not powerful enough to receive any compromises because they are such a small voter base and so radical with their demands of stopping a genocide and protecting illegal immigrants.
Have you not noticed that elections in the US are typically won at or under single digit percentage points? If you’re 3% of a coalition that wins by 1%, you’re big enough to sink the entire coalition if you throw a hissy fit over being asked to join up against a literal fascist, but not big enough to warrant losing the support of, say, 40% of the coalition.
So yeah, both “The far-left is a small part of the coalition” and “If they don’t vote for the coalition, there’s a good chance we lose and fascism wins” are not mutually fucking exclusive.
Yes, congratulations, you have suddenly become aware that building support for an election starts slightly sooner than a week before election day.
Thanks, Pug. I wasn’t aware.
But to be serious, these posts like yours started at the primaries, even longer before the election than now, with the same messaging: Leftists that don’t want an even bigger shift to the right in democratic policies should not complain, or else they are at fault for Trump term number two. That’s crazy. Maybe, just maybe, the DNC can do something themselves to prevent Trump. Instead of blackmailing supporters, they could do something these supporters like.
If you’re 3% of a coalition that wins by 1%, you’re big enough to sink the entire coalition if you throw a hissy fit over being asked to join up against a literal fascist, but not big enough to warrant losing the support of, say, 40% of the coalition.
If someone is only 3% or even lower of your base, but you depend on them or else you don’t get the majority, these 3% don’t just get a 3% say in the coalition. The majority has to make bigger concessions than they want. That’s how 2+ party coalitions work in other parliaments. Smaller parties aren’t just there to be dragged by a chain to vote for everything the bigger party/parties want them to, just for little treats here or there.
Also, I don’t think only 3% want a ceasefire or don’t want republican immigration policies enacted by their own candidate, it’s considerably more people.
