Following the UN Security Council vote to approve a three-phase ceasefire in Gaza, U.S. officials and other international allies of Israel are cynically placing blame on Hamas for a stall in current ceasefire negotiations — even as Israel has insisted on indefinitely continuing its massacre in Gaza and Hamas has said its main request is a guarantee that Israel would actually honor the ceasefire.
But reports from a wide variety of news sources on how both Israel and Hamas are approaching the ceasefire proposal suggest that Blinken is lying about which party is accepting of the deal. Indeed, reports have found that it is actually Israel that won’t agree to the deal’s framework: an immediate ceasefire with a limited prisoner and hostage exchange, then a permanent ceasefire and withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza, and ultimately the reconstruction of Gaza and return of Palestinians to their homes.
Israel’s insistence on continuing its genocide has been consistent throughout the last eight months, including in reaction to the most recent ceasefire proposals of the past weeks. Officials have said Israel will only stop bombarding Gaza when they decide that Hamas has been eliminated and Palestinians there no longer pose a threat to Israel — a pledge that requires the mass slaughter of Palestinian civilians, as military procedures and Israel’s own public statements have shown.
But the main demand from Hamas appears to be straightforward, according to other officials familiar with the negotiations. Multiple outlets citing such sources have echoed what Hamas officials have said: that they are primarily concerned with getting guarantees from the U.S. and Israel that the deal will actually lead to a ceasefire and withdrawal from Gaza.
Specifically, Hamas is concerned about a lack of assurances from the current proposal about the transition between the first and second phases of the plan, Reuters reports, citing multiple sources involved with the talks. The first phase involves a six-week ceasefire, with the release of some Israeli hostages, while the second phase calls for a permanent ceasefire and Israeli troop withdrawal.
Archived version: https://archive.ph/vNwMx
Israel has repeatedly stated their intent to continue the war in Gaza regardless of international approval. Netanyahu, among others, has stated intent to establish a long-term/permanent security presence in Gaza.
Since Oct. 7th the Israeli military has either directly killed or provided protection to lethal settler attacks in the West Bank, resulting in over 500 deaths in a section of Occupied Palestinian Territory that theoretically isn’t at war. So there’s Israeli military presence, violence, and oppression of Palestinians even where Hamas isn’t in control.
Hamas are not good guys by any stretch, but unfortunately they are the folks bargaining for Gazans. In the face of continued Israeli aggression, disregard for international approval/law, and stated plans it’s no wonder they’re demanding that any deals have rock-solid guarantees on an enforceable timetable.
they are the folks bargaining for Gazans
No they are not. Had that been the case people would actually get humanitarian aid and water pipes wouldn’t be used for making rockets but instead give people water.
Israel has been holding the Gaza Strip under blockade for more than a decade, since June 2007. It does not allow any materials in that it considers “dual purpose”, i.e., that can be used for either civilian or military purposes. This includes construction materials, such as cement and iron, and other raw materials. All these are needed to repair Gaza’s water and sanitation infrastructure, which were heavily damaged by Israeli bombings, especially in Operation Cast Lead (which began in late 2008) and Operation Protective Edge (the summer of 2014). The estimated damage amounts to some 34 million dollars. As of the end of 2015, more than 100,000 Palestinians in Gaza were still cut off from the public water network.
This is just some of the systemic violence that happens under an Apartheid State, on top of the direct violence
they are the folks bargaining for Gazans
Hamas’s sole goal is to bait Israel into killing as many Palestinians as possible so they can unite the Arab world via their mutual hatred for Jews. The only reason they’re even making a façade of negotiating is so headlines can make Israel look unreasonable for not accepting their one-sided deals.
Just to get it out of the way at the start - Hamas is terrible. They are violent fundamentalists and do not deserve support. Neither Israel nor Hamas are “good” and the only side that deserves support and recognition are the civilians, Israeli or Palestinian, suffering because of/under their evil regimes. Now on to the rebuttal.
Israel needs no “baiting” to kill or otherwise abuse Palestinians - it’s their policy and has been for a long time. From the Nakba until today, the history of Israeli human rights violations, violence, lies, etc. is well-established. “Look at what you made me do” is such a typical excuse used by abusers that it’s almost a trope. Moreover, Netanyahu’s government deliberately kept Hamas in power as a useful bogeyman and an way to divide/foil Palestinian statehood. There is ample evidence that Israel has directly supported Hamas and other extremists for decades.
“Hamas, for its part, is alleged to have emerged out of the Israeli-financed Islamist movement in Gaza, Israel’s then-military governor in that territory, Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, disclosing in 1981 that he had been given a budget for funding Palestinian Islamists to counter the rising power of Palestinian secularists.”
"In a 1994 book, “The Other Side of Deception,” Mossad whistleblower Victor Ostrovsky contended that aiding Hamas meshed with “Mossad’s general plan” for an Arab world “run by fundamentalists” that would reject “any negotiations with the West,” thereby leaving Israel as “the only democratic, rational country in the region.” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official involved in Gaza for over two decades, told a newspaper interviewer in 2009 that, “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation.”
As far as the nature of the demands: “one-sided deals” is a matter of opinion, but “we need guarantees you’ll actually leave, stop killing/injuring many tens of thousands of civilians, destroying hospitals/schools/aid, etc.” seems like a pretty standard request at peace negotiations. Especially since Israel has repeatedly promised to continue to prosecute the war and establish long-term armed forces in Gaza.
How the hell Hamas are the good guys when they’re the ones that pushed Israel for so long that it finally snapped? Have we forgotten them proudly parading a dead/unconscious girl nude around the streets.
They said,
Hamas are not good guys by any stretch
and then you say,
How the hell Hamas are the good guys […]?
Not only a straw man, but you’re literally acting like they made the complete opposite argument. Bad faith, dude. Bad faith.
Not even going to get into the whole, “they pushed Israel for so long that it finally snapped” thing. Just a complete historical revisionism.
Do people actually buy this shit?
Day in and day out, yes. It is a Kafkaesque political strategy. It is about injecting discord and confusion.
It is a pretty common tactic for accepting or supporting a genocide, or priming people to shame others for not accepting or supporting a genocide.
Corollary: there’s a somewhat relevant quote by Sartre on the ‘anti semite’ from the immediate aftermath of WW2: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7870768-never-believe-that-anti-semites-are-completely-unaware-of-the-absurdity
Not a straw man, but whatever. If you fail to see that the comment I was replying to is basically “they’re not the good guys, BUT…”, not much to discuss. I’ll maybe just add that a few years ago, when comments like “I’m not racist, BUT…” were everywhere, people like you were going around telling everyone that the part before the BUT doesn’t count, so I took the liberty of ignoring it.
So, is it hypocrisy or just cognitive dissonance?
How israel the good guys when they imposed a blockade on gaza controlling all in and out in it and control water and electricity in gaza. When they are continuing to expends illegal settlements in west bank and when they never stopped killed palestinians even before the 7 of october?
when they’re the ones that pushed Israel for so long that it finally snapped?
I guess Israel has never treated Palestinians unfairly, huh?🙄
Did I say that? Just to clarify: I didn’t and I don’t think so.
I know it’s hard to grasp, but there are people who think the hamas terrorists are disgusting and at the same time the Israeli genocide is disgusting.
You know that you don’t have to support terrorists just to condemn a genocide, right?
I hope this doesn’t just dissolve into hand-waving and general dismissal based on “he said / she said”. Someone call the bluff and let’s see the cards face-up.
Disclaimer: I have no idea and it’s confusing; I just read a bunch of stories just now; and people lie sometimes. That said, these are the details of the full plan as of a couple weeks ago, which supposedly came from Israel but which they immediately clammed up about whether or not they actually would agree to, not saying either yes or no for quite some time, which was weird. There is still some uncertainty over whether they will “agree to” their own proposal.
This is the best story I could find which actually somewhat explains what’s going on at this point. According to it:
- Hamas didn’t reject the deal but they asked for changes (details not made public and people disagree about what they were and how big they are). Personally I tend to put quite a lot of faith in the Qatari spokesman whose blackly comic summary of the issue was “two fundamental differences; between what Hamas wants as a permanent ceasefire, and what Israel wants as a hostage release and maybe a plan to continue the war.”
- On that note, someone in Israel’s government (no one knows who) said yesterday, “Israel will not end the war before achieving all its war objectives: destroying Hamas’s military and governing capabilities, freeing all the hostages and ensuring Gaza doesn’t pose a threat to Israel in the future.” I.e. we get all the hostages back and keep killing you until we feel like we’re done, and then at that point, we’ll be happy to cease fire.
- We finally see the details of what’s going on in Israel’s government: Sounds like Benny Gantz (who already resigned) and Yair Lapid are supporting the cease-fire, and Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben Gvir have threatened to “collapse the government” if it goes through. Nothing public about what Netanyahu thinks but Benny Gantz cited disagreements with him as why he was resigning.
- Both Blinken and Qatar are blaming both Israel and Hamas for doing too much bickering and not enough agreeing to the cease fire. Blinken points out, with maybe a certain amount of validity, that Hamas could have simply said “yes” to the US/Israel/UN/Qatari approved plan already on the table instead of giving the Israelis any room to blame them and keep the war going which is clearly what they wanted to do anyway.
TL;DR it’s probably Israel’s fault
That’s why Blinken is there. Hamas suggested an altered version of the ceasefire that Israel won’t agree to. Now Blinken needs to find middle ground.
That’s why Blinken is there
To lie to the world and pretend to be a neutral arbiter while clearly being on the side of the genocidal apartheid regime like every other secretary of state for the last 75 years?
Well, in that case I’ll say something I would never otherwise say, based on all he’s done so far: Blinken is doing a great job! Well done!
(Autocorrect changed great to grotesque, which is more accurate in general)
From what I am understanding a few points Hamas wants changed:
The US ceasefire proposal says israel only needs to leave the populated areas of Gaza. Meaning Blinken is saying that he wants to let israel occupy the “non populated areas” of Gaza
Hamas wants israel out of Gaza.
Israel wants to continue their Genocide if a deal has not been reached after 6 weeks.
Hamas wants a permanent ceasefire and the ceasefire should continue indefinitely after 6 weeks if there’s still discussions ongoing.
For the rebuilding of Gaza the US would contribute ~400 million dollars to rebuilding Gaza (damage estimates 30-40 Billion from UN) after giving israel 26 Billion in weapons. Did not read a comment about this from Hamas but this seems rather low.
Would still be better to agree to a temporary ceasefire whilst a permanent one is negotiated.
If there was any chance of it turning into a permanent ceasefire; yes. However israel has made it clear in no uncertain words that they will continue the Genocide after 6 weeks.
Netanyahu says the war will not end until Hamas is destroyed
Biden said Friday a peace deal would involve an initial six-week cease-fire with a partial Israeli military withdrawal, and the release of some hostages, while “a permanent end to hostilities” is negotiated through mediators.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office on Saturday dismissed any idea that Israel would agree to a permanent cease-fire before “the destruction of Hamas’ military and governing capabilities,” saying such a proposal is “a non-starter.”
Netanyahu is not the end-all-be-all of Israeli decisionmaking. Unlike Hamas, the Israeli state is a democratic institution. If an agreement is formulated between that guarantees the Israeli citizenry that Gazan islamic terrorists won’t repeat an october 7 massacre in the future, Netanyahu will not be able to stop it. Time is what is needed to create such an agreement.
However, as always, Hamas prioritizes their own interests above those of the Gazan populace. They know very well Israel can not realistucally agree to an unconditional, permanent end to hostilities, as that was the situation that led to october 7th in the first place.
At the minimum I would expect a permanent end to the war to be conditioned on Hamas releasing the remaining civilian hostages.
then a permanent ceasefire and withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza, and ultimately the reconstruction of Gaza and return of Palestinians to their homes.
I don’t have anything to add, but want to ask a question about this part: what fucking homes?!?!
“Ok, you can go back home now. Btw, it’s a pile of rubble now, so good luck with that. Bye!”
It’s going to take years, if not decades, to clear the rubble and the human remains still inside.
The millions of reconstruction for billions worth of damage will ensure there is maximum amount of ‘unpopulated’ Gazan area for Israel to remain occupying.
Which also means there is a baked in flashpoint of conflict where Israel will have to leave areas that are rebuilt. The entire history and existence of Israel indicates this will not happen: settlers will occupy anywhere the IDF is: which brings us back to the status quo.
Regardless of whatever changes each side wants, stopping the shooting and bombardments would be a gesture that would represent actual intent in reaching a real ceasefire.
