“And you think letting treason pass with no consequences isn’t also sending a message?”

Like it or not the rule of law and due process still applies, even to people we detest. It wasn’t “letting treason pass”, it was not being able to get the consequences to stick because of (a) a conservative Supreme Court ruling that gave presidents immunity; (b) a Trump-appointed judge slow-walking and then essentially ditching Smith’s case. Notably, hundreds of Jan 6 participants went to prison for their actions. Hardly a pass there.

Simply locking Trump up because -we- felt he was treasonous is the exact same thing as Trump and the fascists locking us up because they feel we are treasonous. Critically, it invalidates our claim to being in the right and it validates the action as justified and correct, thus undermining any attempt to ensure fascists are correctly labeled as ‘the bad guys’. I know to us that’s obvious, but sadly there are millions of Americans who are unclear on that point and need to be educated. You can’t educate someone by proving them right in their claims.

I am NOT saying that overriding the rule of law isn’t sometimes necessary. After Hitler came to power and over-turned the rule of law then obviously he had to be stopped and the means didn’t really matter. I prefer to believe that will not be necessary with Trump and we can empty the burning dumpster in 2028.

True. But the one thing we’ve got going for us is that it is demonstrably wrong and we didn’t fall into the trap of proving it was justified.

Edit: well at least two people think it’s ok to use authoritarian political power to counter authoritarian political power. Do you really think that ever works out? Note that this is very distinct from something like civil war or overthrowing the government. It’s doing the exact thing you don’t want your opponent to do.

I doubt we’re ever going to have another election anyway.

I sometimes feel that way. But I still have some faith in people, particularly Gen Z. I believe after the shit hits the fan and keeps hitting it for 4 years, that we’ll turn this around. And because we didn’t agree to make presidents kings we can actually do that.

I appreciate your thoughtful comment.

Neither authoritarianism nor ignoring the rule of law are inherently bad.

Look, I understand the point you are trying to make. Roughly that being authoritarian to achieve “good” ends is ok. The wrinkle that you overlook is that there are many wildly varying viewpoints about what is “good”. Being “inclusive of everyone” for example, is something that most Christo-fascists would abhor, their bible notwithstanding. Neglecting people for economic gain is practically a religion in itself for some people.

What all that boils down to is this: if one group ignores the rule of law because they are “right” then the other group feels fully justified in doing the same. And because we have a democracy and that democracy doesn’t enshrine progressive ideas into law, we can’t ensure groups with ideas we find abhorrent don’t use our precedent to impose those ideas on us.

Fascism is a specific type of authoritarianism that basically does the opposite to a society of what it should look like.

Not according to fascists. Do you see the problem? You just said that fascist authoritarianism is ok - from their perspective.

Utilizing authority to make society better for basically everyone is not fascism

Hitler firmly believed he was making “society better for basically everyone”. The Christian Nationalists and White Supremacists firmly believe their getting into power via a Trump administration will make “society better for basically everyone”.

I know many of us would love to believe that there is an objective truth and that our beliefs about a good, just and equitable society are universal and objectively correct at a human level. I believe in the “arc of the moral universe” that is so but there is no way that I can use the mechanisms of oppression that I detest to enforce that belief on others and have that enforcement be successful.

Have you ever tried to negotiate or educate someone when you are angry? Like say your neighbor keeps playing loud music and you really want them to stop. If you come out yelling at them and are visibly angry you -might- get them to stop, but you have made an enemy. If you approach them in an open-minded way that acknowledges their rights and autonomy you have a much better chance of a constructive dialog that gets you what you want.

It’s hard to think like this right now, I fully understand. We are all angry and frustrated as hell. Maybe it helps to be reminded that we still have a lot of power, especially at the local level… and that we are playing the long game.

If the rules are unjust then breaking them is an ethical imperative.

This thinking is precisely why Jan 6 happened and will happen again if we validate that thinking by doing it ourselves.

The fascists are bad not because they break the law, but because they believe and want to do fascism.

This is true. But if you want fascists to do fascism more and with more righteous enthusiasm, then adopt their tactics. Grievance is part of the ethos there. Many MAGAts truly believe that the Biden administration was “going after” them and that we liberals are an existential threat that justified any means at their disposal. This is the problem with violence and authoritarian approaches in general - the more you do it the more the other side feels the must do it.

And Trump not being in jail is frankly a crime against lady liberty.

Yes… and it’s an insult, unjust and highlights the double standard for the wealthy and politically powerful. But strictly speaking it’s not a crime.

The good guys are “good” not because they respect the rules, but because they believe in humane values

You know what is a humane value? Respecting other people even when you vehemently disagree with them. Acknowledging that they are human beings and have a right to their thoughts and ideas even when you feel they are wrong. Because if you do not you are tacitly agreeing to their thinking that YOU are wrong. You are giving that perspective credence and the harder you push back the more you are allowing them to justify suppression of YOUR ideas.

I happen to think MAGA zealots are absolutely misguided and ignorant. But I can see how they got that way - racism, bigotry and misogyny borne of christo-fascist white supremacy. And what that means ultimately is that the people themselves are not the enemy, the ideas are. You can shape ideas through education and by being open and accepting of people. You can’t do it by rejecting people.

“The end justifies the means” is the standard excuse of dictators everywhere. And once you go down that road you don’t really come back.

There is an excellent interview on this topic with Laurence Tribe that is really worth watching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z06TJAMY-bo

I fully acknowledge just how much this sucks and how dangerous the situation is. I’m trans and live in a MAGA-infested area. That’s only one dimension of the danger but it definitely opens one’s eyes.

But throwing up our hands and grasping at bad options that make things worse is not the answer. We have far far more power than people realize. I don’t entirely share Tribe’s faith in our constitution and laws but to just say “oh it didn’t work lets throw it away” is not going to make things better. It would literally be throwing away what power and ability to effect change we still have. It would destroy our country and you can bet it won’t be remade as some progressive paradise.

Ah, the benevolent dictator fallacy. Because no person or party would ever abuse power or fail to give it up once the “aim” is achieved. There certainly would be no expansion in what the “aim” is. And definitely the people we agree with are always good.