Right so… “let’s do the thing the fascist threatens to do because we’re right and it’s justified” is not the same thing as the fascist saying “we’ll do it because we’re right and it’s justified”.
Easy to justify the means when you believe in the ends… but of course every one thinks they are right and that everyone else will come to believe they are right, thusly conveniently avoiding any bad consequences.
Do you have any idea what would have happened if Biden just arrested Trump?
Breaking the rules isn’t fascism though. Fascism is fascism.
What do you think is a more ethical choice:
a) uphold the law, knowing it will let fascist come to power and kill thousands
a) break the law and stop him
Breaking the rules isn’t fascism though. Fascism is fascism.
It is precisely fascism. It’s ignoring the rule of law to achieve authoritarian aims. Why is it ok when you agree with the outcome and not ok when you don’t? But way more importantly, once you do it you cannot go back. If Biden did this and Trump ended up winning - make no mistake Biden has no authority to remove candidates from ballots - then Trump would feel completely justified in jailing his opponents.
What do you think is a more ethical choice
A. Because the premise of your choice is flawed. You do not know that breaking the law would stop him. You do not know -with certainty- that not breaking the law would result in that outcome. But we do know that being authoritarian to achieve aims we believe in is no better than people we disagree with doing the exact same. What would happen if Biden was successful in stopping Trump but then, because we wouldn’t ever keep unfettered presidential power… right? RIGHT? We’re the “good” guys… what would happen if MAGA Republicans won in 2028? I doubt we’d ever have another election again.
Uh, Trump feels completely justified in jailing his enemies already. Will it happen? I’m not excited to wait and find out.
I doubt we’d ever have another election again.
With Trump in office, and Project 2025 in the pipeline, I doubt we’re ever going to have another election anyway.
Are you really achieving authoritarian aims if the end goal is not authoritarian?
it’s precisely fascism
It’s really fucking not. It’s extraordinary, unprecedented circumstances. You don’t just hand it over to this guy, especially after telling us his cabinet. They’re ALL national security threats! Tulsi fucking Gabbard in charge of every intelligence agency? Do people not see how inherently dangerous that is??
What makes a society good is being inclusive of everyone regardless of how they were born and working through cooperation to achieve goals and look out for each other. A society where people are intentionally neglected for another group’s economic gain is not a desirable society unless you’re a fascist. However, ideologies are not people and ideologies that promote an unequal society do not need to be tolerated, and people who pose a danger due to their actions to the people around them in a society that would otherwise be more fair do not need to be tolerated either.
Neither authoritarianism nor ignoring the rule of law are inherently bad. In reality, law isn’t words written on a piece of paper - it’s people with political motives that hold authority over law enforcement and the criminal justice system. The words themselves hold no authority, and they depend on the people to actually follow them, so the people can collectively choose to ignore them or change their meaning and now suddenly the law is different even though the words didn’t change one bit. The political motives the people who decide the law have generally favor a society that supports corruption and inequality, so there is nothing inherently wrong with breaking the law, especially if it makes everyone’s lives better.
Fascism is a specific type of authoritarianism that basically does the opposite to a society of what it should look like. Utilizing authority to make society better for basically everyone is not fascism. Utilizing authority to dehumanize a subset of people for the economic gain of a “superior race” is fascism.
What would happen if Biden was successful in stopping Trump but then, because we wouldn’t ever keep unfettered presidential power… right? RIGHT? We’re the “good” guys… what would happen if MAGA Republicans won in 2028? I doubt we’d ever have another election again.
From the standpoint of democracy that wouldn’t be ideal, but why is republicans having 2(4) years of unchecked power better? They don’t give a shit and gonna do a lot more damage to it.
Why is it ok when you agree with the outcome and not ok when you don’t?
Because the side coming to power wants to gleefully deport, repress and kill people, and the other one much less so. The good guys are “good” not because they respect the rules, but because they believe in humane values, in ending their fists when the others’ faces begins and all that good stuff. The fascists are bad not because they break the law, but because they believe and want to do fascism.
If the rules are unjust then breaking them is an ethical imperative. And Trump not being in jail is frankly a crime against lady liberty.
Do you have any idea what would have happened if Biden just arrested Trump?
If he would’ve done it early in his term, I suspect Trump would not have been elected president again. But instead he pushed the idea through some absurdly bureaucratic system that allowed Trump to run the clock out on everything.
If he would’ve done it early in his term, I suspect Trump would not have been elected president again.
We would have had a civil war or at least an attempted one. Then the next time a MAGA-esque Republican came along, which would probably be in 2028 or 32 they’d feel free to completely take the gloves off. We would have validated and enabled that behavior by doing it ourselves.
I do find it fascinating that you seem to be attributing this all to Biden. We have a relatively weak executive branch and separation of powers through different branches of government for a reason. Overturning that is the worst possible idea.
Then the next time a MAGA-esque Republican came along, which would probably be in 2028 or 32 they’d feel free to completely take the gloves off.
And you think letting treason pass with no consequences isn’t also sending a message?
The Republicans have no shame and aren’t waiting for the Democrats to strike first. Take away one rationalization and they will just manufacture another.
Yeah, it might be just to arrest him, but America clearly doesn’t give a fuck. The fact of the matter is the people picked Trump this election, if nothing else arresting him will only galvanize his followers and legitimatize their own turn to fascism. There’s no good outcome in this scenario, we missed that opportunity on election night. It sucks but right now we’re the kid playing with fire; obviously we need to learn the hard way. We should’ve learned from the last trump presidency you say? Yeah, we really, really should’ve.
Not arresting this man the second the Supreme Court gave Joe the opportunity will end with millions dead, we both know that.
Not arresting this man the second the Supreme Court gave Joe the opportunity will end with millions dead, we both know that.
I think millions is an exaggeration but it’s also pretty irrelevant whether it’s a 1000 or 1 million, it’s gonna be very very bad. I’m very sympathetic to this argument and in a whishy hopey kinda way would have loved to see it happen…
But: the SC ruling doesn’t allow a president to act with impunity. It’s way more complicated than that.
It states that a president has “absolute immunity” for actions “within his conclusive and preclusive constitutional authority” and “presumptive immunity” for all official acts. The complete shitstorm that would follow an arrest of Trump “for reasons” would include significant debate about which one of these it was. I have to think that “because he will do bad things and for reasons” is going to push this to the second classification at best. And at that point a whole lot of lawyers are going to be working overtime to show that "applying a criminal prohibition to that act would pose no “dangers of intrusion on the authority and functions of the Executive Branch.”
(Opinion here: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf)
It would end up in the Supreme Court. What do you think would happen then? The SC would rule that Biden did not act appropriately and Trump would be released. I don’t have a lot of faith in running out the clock on him running or any other “good” outcome.
in this reply and the others following it you seem to be completely glossing over the most salient point here, which is that TRUMP SHOULD NOT BE ELIGIBLE TO SERVE AS PRESIDENT. Taking extreme measures to prevent him from getting access to unprecedented power is not sacrificing the rule of law for our beliefs, it is defending the rule of law, in which we believe, from a madman who openly despises it!
“TRUMP SHOULD NOT BE ELIGIBLE TO SERVE AS PRESIDENT”
I agree. But in fact “should not” is a question of law and despite your assertion that somehow removing him is not sacrificing the rule of law, there is no law that says Trump is ineligible to serve as president. I’d like there to be some rules disqualifying him and a bunch of other people, but alas there isn’t.
Go ahead, find the law that says Trump is ineligible and describe how you might defend that in court.
“The disqualification clause of the Fourteenth Amendment prevents public officials who engage in treason from holding a future public office.”
Yes I am aware that the Supreme Court let him stay on the ballot when they had the chance to rule on this, but that’s a single ruling, not a law, and in point of fact not even Trump’s own lawyers argued that he was not a traitor–they persuaded the Court he appointed to invent a technicality that has no basis in the actual amendment, nor any law, nor legal precedent.
The silver lining here should be that the same Court also gave Biden the immunity he would need to step in and use the Executive branch to apply any the “checks and balances” needed to restore rule of law when all other branches fail, because that is the way our democracy is designed to work, yet Biden won’t do that, and so US citizens can say goodbye to having any form of separation of powers at all.
