which I find to be incredibly stupid because it’s a cultural construct that is largely self imposed
Oh please explain this more. We need your cis gender expertise to explain how gender doesn’t matter
and is imo the only legit reason to transition.
Wtf. First, why else would someone transition? And even so, who are you to gatekeep what reasons are legit?
By simply mocking the person for saying gender roles are stupid, the naive conclusion is that you are for gender roles.
If there’s nuance there, it’d be great for you to tease that out, otherwise it just looks like you’re for gender roles, or gatekeeping the topic.
By simply mocking the person for saying gender roles are stupid, the naive conclusion is that you are for gender roles.
Maybe the VERY naive conclusion by someone who isn’t interested in any nuance at all. Because I didn’t quote anything related to gender roles. I mocked him for his comment suggesting that gender itself is a construct. Which is patronizing as fuck by someone who feels comfortable in their gender
So this might be because I personally have not experienced qualms with my gender, but if someone takes away societal gender norms, and takes away body dysmorphia, what is “left” to define gender as?
I see that you mentioned “how society treats you” is another aspect, but is that not just another cultural gendered norm?
I know I’ve expanded gender roles to gender norms - I believe the latter is what OP was asking about since he claimed gender is a societal construct.
And like I’ve said in other parts of this thread - there’s no need to answer if you’re not feeling it. You’re just chilling online, this isn’t a challenge to your existence or anything else meant to make you feel uncomfortable. Just someone who attended diversity and sexuality courses almost a decade ago who doesn’t know much these days.
Many trans people (me included) strongly identify with a gender.
If we didn’t strongly identify with a gender, why on earth would we put ourselves through this lengthy, expensive, socially punishing, and often painful transition process? The joy of living as yourself (which, for many of us, includes gender expression) makes it worthwhile.
Gender roles, like “men are doctors, women are nurses?” Very often, those are fucking bullshit.
Wanting to be recognized as a man/woman, and valuing that, does not imply being on board with sexism.
Shouldn’t we be making the distinction between TransSex and TransGender in that case then?
I’ve been told very conflicting opinions on the whole topic; from genitals don’t matter AT ALL in terms of being identified as a man/woman, to genitals being the defining thing that needs changing for a person to feel whole.
I’m the type of person who needs to understand things logically, and a lot of the time upon trying to understand - I’m given completely different goalposts by completely different people. How do I understand all the different opinions on the topic, in a way that allows me to logically follow a thought process in order to distinguish these different ways of thinking?
As for the first part, I feel like I explained it fairly well. Literally just do what you want. It’s the equivalent of saying “I’m nerdy, so I can only do nerdy things.”
As for the second part, yeah I mean I shouldn’t be gatekeeping but I phrased it that way to show that I do understand that reason.
With that being said, I posted that with the hope of learning, and while your comment feels a little aggressive, I appreciate that you stayed civil. Can you explain why my understanding of gender does not work?
Can you explain why my understanding of gender does not work?
Because it’s mostly coming from a place that you simply can’t understand. Gender isn’t just a social construct. Gender roles are, but telling trans people that “hey gender doesn’t matter, just do what you want” is extremely patronizing coming from someone who feels comfortable in their gender.
And even if gender was a social construct, we live in a society. And part of being a particular gender is how people in society treat you. Seeing cis women treated one way, and then being treated another can be dysphoric as fuck, even when the difference is sexist as fuck and obviously just a social differentiation. In the end, you’re right, most of the differences in how the different genders are created are due to society, but that doesn’t make them any less part of living as a particular gender.
In my eyes, swapping genders to get treated differently seems to be a hopeless endeavour, and it reinforces the idea of gender roles. I understand that society doesn’t change because you want it to, but it would also help to fight sexism if we ignored the concept of gender roles.
If someone makes fun of you for being masculine while wearing a dress, publicly shame them and society will eventually realize that that doesn’t work. But by transitioning to be treated like a woman, you are letting them win because you are simply accepting that “this is the way women are treated”
I’ve heard that it’s not something I can understand because I’m comfortable in my gender, but I don’t think that’s true. I’m extremely open minded and very capable of putting myself in others shoes, which is why I have the views I have. Also, I don’t feel like I have a gender because I simply don’t engage with society in a way that would allow for gender, hence why I believe everyone should be agender. I just want to take the shortest path to actually fixing the problem instead of prolonging it. If someone could accurately explain what it feels like “to be a man/woman” without bringing gender roles into it, I feel like I would be able to understand that. But every time I ask, I get answers to how they choose to engage with society instead of what that feeling actually feels like.
I did hear someone in this thread say that they enjoy expressing their gender, and unless they’re referring to gender roles that they engage in, I currently don’t understand how that is possible.
That was a bit of a rant but I wanted to add in as much context as possible, thank you for your comment
Edit: I phrased part of that poorly, so here’s a correction: in order to do away with sexism and treating genders differently, we as a society and as a movement should choose not to engage with bigots who perpetuate gender roles, such as not working for companies that have a wage gap, and not dating people who won’t let you wear the clothes you want. In this way, we will eventually force people to accept that the genders are equal in all ways, thereby eliminating them as a necessary construct.