Comment by agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works on Hey which genocidal maniac are y'all voting for?

We have more than two seconds, and what does this have to do with criticizing a sitting president? Explain. I’m not allowed to highlight the atrocities his administration commits?

Edit: You have to kill the person, and you aren’t allowed to complain about it either. One way is “murder the people” and the other choice is “murder the innocent person #Pride #BLM” – we’re not allowed to talk about how colossally shitty it was to establish this trolley system in the first place?

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agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works

-2 points

1 year ago

We have more than two seconds

Not in the trolley scenario you don’t. But in the situation it represents, how do you, personally, plan to “burn the trolley and rip up the tracks” before November?

what does this have to do with criticizing a sitting president?

Fomenting electoral apathy in the conscientious portion of the population just before a close election empowers the candidate preferred by the non-conscientious portion of the population. I’m all for criticisms, but leftist infighting, and refusing to “big-tent” with neo-liberals in election years, only benefits the right.

The opposition learned how to play the game and move things incrementally towards their goals. Letting idealism obstruct pragmatism is only making things worse, even when your ideals are right. Play the game or lose.

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LinkOpensChest.wav@midwest.socialOP

6 points

1 year ago

Play the game or lose.

So what you’re saying is we have a terrible undemocratic system that was founded on the ideals of oppression and genocide, and that there’s no hope of fixing it. Got it.

Fuck the fascist United States.

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agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works

-7 points

1 year ago

Never said that, but smugly refusing to participate because it’s flawed is not an effective path toward fixing it. Conservatives have been gutting civil liberties by patiently toeing the line and playing by the rules of the game to develop their position over decades. Progressives have been splitting vote (or just straight up not voting) because they let their ideals prevent them from compromising on winning strategies.

Ideals and principles are great guiding stars to aim toward, and I desperately hope to live to see fully automated luxury gay space communism, but refusing to vote for the lesser evil isn’t getting us any closer. It’s just bringing us closer to an actual fascist United States.

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young_broccoli@kbin.social

5 points

1 year ago

Throw a log at the tracks.

I understand the logic that not voting might give the presidency to Trump but its also a good way to expose the falacy of our “democracies”. The less participation there is the harder it gets to keep the lie.
Theres a reason why Australia made voting compulsory.

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agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works

-3 points

1 year ago

Another clever solution, but where’s the log? I don’t see one there, and the trolley is too close for you to have time to go off to find one.

What even is the log in this scenario, another insurrection? Not voting isn’t throwing a log, it’s just not pulling the lever.

What makes you think the accelerationist position of “exposing the fallacy” would actually make anything better? It’s very possible, I’d argue probable, that it would just make a lasting fascist regime more likely. What reason do you have to believe that a more transparent lie would be enough to make people actual do anything different?

Personally, I don’t think that’s a gamble with very favorable odds.

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LinkOpensChest.wav@midwest.socialOP

-2 points

1 year ago

I just don’t see what any of this has to do with correctly pointing out that our sitting president is complicit in genocide among other atrocities. Do you think we should only say nice things about him and that we should respect him no matter what? Because this is not gonna happen. I’m a bad person, but I’m not so bad that I’m willing to tolerate genocide or the victims of our manufactured border “crisis.” Fuck all of that completely.

The only reason I see any point in voting is if we can demand more of the president. Are you part of a cult? Because unquestionably following a leader and shielding him from all criticism on the grounds that someone worse might win is straight up creepy and cultlike.

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young_broccoli@kbin.social

0 points

1 year ago

Fixed it

What even is the log in this scenario, another insurrection? Not voting isn’t throwing a log, it’s just not pulling the lever.

As I see it, the lever is the choice being made, in this case dem. or rep., the tracks are the electoral system and the log is the third option they dont want us to give and have taught us it doesnt exist.
In a true democracy we should be able to say “we dont like options given, do better” but those voices are conveniently ignored.

What makes you think the accelerationist position of “exposing the fallacy” would actually make anything better?

The first step in demanding the true is to realize you’ve been lied to. If everyone is voting it must mean that they agree the system works because people dont usually waste time in tasks that they believe are fruitless. I believe people will realize something is wrong with their “democracy” when its minorities choosing for everyone else and start demanding true democracy.
Also, the fact that they, the rulling class, seems to be afraid of it. As I mentioned before, australia making vote compulsory when the numbers were geting “too low for comfort” is a good example.

Personally, I don’t think that’s a gamble with very favorable odds.

Its possible it could backfire, yes. And, as I said in another comment, right now wouldnt be the best time to do it. Vote, but be aware that the system you participate in is just mitigating the symptoms of a desease and not treating it. Pretending otherwise is not a good gamble either.
Actions must be taken to change it. An organized effort to sabotage the elections by not voting could be one option.

And you forget the fact that even if most people votes theres a chance trump will still win. Even if biden gets the popular vote, just like it happened in 2016. Who will you blame then?
The way these types of conversations can get so heated is an indicator that people is still not placing the blame where it should be. People need to be shown the truth, which is hard when our whole lives we’ve been “educated” to believe a lie, and again, I think electoral sabotage is a good attempt at that.

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agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works

-1 points

1 year ago

In any nation with first past the post elections, like the United States, Leftists have exactly one rational voting strategy:

Step 1. Identify the two front-runner parties, and determine which of the two is further left relative to the other.

Step 2. Vote for that party in every single election (don’t forget midterms and local elections). Encourage everyone you know to do the same.

Step 3. Once the (relative) left party has an overwhelming majority (over 2/3) and the relative right party becomes vanishingly irrelevant (under 1/3), then split the (relative) left party into its own relative left and right.

Step 4. Repeat steps 1-3 with these new front-runner parties.

Step 5. Iterate step 4 until your relative left party passes election reform such that elections are no longer susceptible to Duverger’s Law.

Certainly try to push for reform within the relative left party between elections and during primaries, but at the ballot box the above is the only rational strategy. Voting third party, or refusing to vote the lesser evil, is not a rational strategy.

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0 points

1 year ago

Conservatives in the DNC and GOP next year:

Oh no, the left didn’t vote! What a shame! Now we won’t have any tasty ballots to snack on. Oh well, I guess we’d better start drifting left and further away from the interests of the people who actually elected us. Gee, I was really hoping the people whose views fundamentally oppose our own were going to vote. Mr Trump, we’d better stop suppressing black people’s votes right away, cause the left isn’t voting and we think that’s bad.

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ryegye24@midwest.social

1 point

1 year ago

The less participation there is the harder it gets to keep the lie.

This is just wildly naive. The less participation the easier you are to manage. Why do you think the GOP goes so hard on voter suppression and gerrymandering?

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young_broccoli@kbin.social

1 point

1 year ago

Their voter suppression is meant to stop from voting a very specific and relative small group of people not comparable to what an organized sabotage of the elections would be.
Gerrymandering is meant to dilute the vote of those who are already voting in favour of one party and its an example of how fallacious your democracy is.

I already admitted that I might be wrong, but something must be done to change this and believing you can fix a rigged game by playing it, is also naive.

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-2 points

1 year ago

Burning the trolley in this case will kill tens if not hundreds of thousands of people. I’m sure you’ll chill out once you turn 20.

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LinkOpensChest.wav@midwest.socialOP

1 point

1 year ago

I’m middle aged. My perspective is based on decades of being lied to by Democrats and being marginalized by both parties for being LGBT+ with a family of immigrants. Your opinion sounds like the childish one here, chief – mindlessly parroting tired capitalist propaganda.

We need to dismantle the system. It’s never been good, it only harms, and it cannot be fixed from within.

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-gelderloos-anarchy-works

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rbesfe@lemmy.ca

-4 points

1 year ago

Removed by mod

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