Because someone, eventually, is going to make this post anyway, we might as well get it over with. I know someone posted something a week ago, but I feel something a little more neutral would be useful.
There’s a lot of talk on lemmy.world right now about lemmy.ml at an instance level (edit: see here: https://sh.itjust.works/post/20400058). A lot of it is very similar to the discussions we’ve had here before- accusations of ideologically-based censorship, promotion of authoritarian left propaganda, ‘tankie-ism’, etc. The subject of the admin’s, and Lemmy dev’s, political beliefs is back up as a discussion point. The word defederation is getting thrown around, and some of our beloved sh.it.heads are part of the conversation.
What do people think about lemmy.ml? Is there evidence that the instance is managed in such a way that it creates problems for Lemmy users, and/or users of sh.itjust.works specifically? Are they problems that extend to the entire instance or primary user base, or are the examples referenced generally limited to specific communities/moderators/users? Are people here, in short, interested in putting federation to lemmy.ml to a vote?
To our admin team and moderators: What are your experiences with lemmy.ml? Have you run into any specific problems with their userbase, or challenges related to our being federated with them?
Full disclosure: I have very little personal stake in this. I don’t really engage with posts about international events, I don’t share my political beliefs (such as they are) online beyond “Don’t be a shitbag, help your fellow human out when you can”, and have not run into any of the concerns brought up personally. But I’m also not the kind of user who would butt against this stuff often in the first place.
What I will say is that I have not personally witnessed activites like brigading or promotion of really nasty shit from lemmy.ml. I cannot say this about other instances we defederated from before. But again, this may just be a product of how I use Lemmy, and does not account for the experiences of others.
This is just an opportunity for those who do have strong opinions on this topic to say their piece and, more importantly, share their evidence.
If nothing else, given similar conversations a year ago, this will be an interesting account of what sh.itjust.works looks like today (happy belated cake day everybody!)
I had a different reply typed out but I’ve decided to change it because:
This is such a weird reply. It really feels like you’re claiming that people pointing out that abusing mod powers (objectively a thing being done) are somehow in the wrong for doing so just because the people abusing the power are those who coded the site it’s being done on.
The choices users have to deal with an issue like this are to block (per-user, so they have to discuss it), defederation (a big decision, so discussion), or leaving entirely (in which case theyd want others to come with, so discussion). That is unless shaming the people doing it works, but they’ve kinda shown they don’t care as this is far from the first time this has come up.
How is it at all embarrassing for the users of a forum to discuss on said forum one of their few methods of recourse to people with power on that forum abusing it?
It really feels like you’re claiming that people pointing out that abusing mod powers (objectively a thing being done) are somehow in the wrong for doing so
Huh? I never said anything remotely like that. This discussion isn’t about pointing out mod abuse, it’s about potentially defederating lemmy.ml. I support everyone who points out mod abuse, but defederation is a whole other can of worms.
The choices users have to deal with an issue like this
Most users don’t have any issue at all. It’s a vocal minority that antagonize (either deliberately or accidentally) the lemmy.ml users and communities that have been subject to the moderator actions in question.
How is it at all embarrassing for the users of a forum to discuss on said forum one of their few methods of recourse to people with power on that forum abusing it?
It’s not. I said it’s kinda embarrassing, because of the possibility of the discussion actually leading to defederation. If we discuss and decide against defederation, I don’t think it’s embarrassing at all. But if we ultimately defederate lemmy.ml just 12 months after joining Lemmy, I would be slightly embarrassed by that choice, yes.
I would see it as a failure of our ability to solve problems and continue to build Lemmy up, and I don’t think lemmy.ml has done anything egregious enough that we have no choice. So ultimately I would see it as an overly sensitive reaction to a fairly pedestrian internet moderation saga.
This discussion isn’t about pointing out mod abuse, it’s about potentially defederating lemmy.ml.
Because of mod abuse. By ignoring that you’re reframing the whole situation as something else.
Most users don’t have any issue at all
Lol
It’s a vocal minority that antagonize (either deliberately or accidentally) the lemmy.ml users and communities that have been subject to the moderator actions in question.
LOL
So your opinion is based on complete bullshit, gotcha
Gotta chime in here - part of why I made this post was exactly this reason. Apologies in advance for length.
As someone who doesn’t participate in communities where political discussions are the norm, I haven’t had issues with lemmy.ml moderators or users. I know others have, but was uncertain how many other users on this instance experienced this, and if they felt the experience was bad/pressing enough that defederation should be seriously considered.
As a personal aside, so far I’ve seen some very useful perspectives, but not enough evidence to seriously support defederation. The only elements that give me pause are Socsa’s concerns, but even then I don’t think the evidence is rock solid at this stage (though defed or not, warrant further consideration). This is just me though, I can’t speak for anyone else.
I think imaqtpie’s POV is valid, though perhaps not phrased the best way (‘antagonize’ carries some connotations that might be distracting). The problems occur when engaging lemmy.ml on topics their mods are, IMO, overly and inappropriately sensitive about. It usually happens in communities where politically-focused discussion is expected. When this happens, they engage in what can reasonably be described as mod abuse. I think we can agree on that.
Is this problem, and its downstream effects, such that all of lemmy.ml - all users without regard to political affiliations/interests/participation levels/whatever, all communities, etc. - should be cut off from sh.itjust.works entirely? If not, are there other approaches this instance should take to mitigate the problems that exist for its users [e.g. coordinating with other groups to migrate key communities off of .ml and support adoption? Community block lists that folks can use, that are one step below blocking a whole instance? Other things I can’t think of?]
Ultimately, we cannot control how lemmy.ml manages their instance/communities hosted there. What exactly are the problems that causes here, what options are reasonable to address them, and how do users of sh.itjust.works want to deal with that. This is what I was aiming to suss out in opening up this discussion.
Another aside: I see you are based at another instance (which is totally fine, all perspectives are welcome at the discussion stage). First question: Do you guys have a similar governance model to sh.itjust.works, and is defed from .ml under consideration? More important second question: if sh.itjust.works continues to be federated with .ml, would you feel it’s warranted for your instance to defed from us?
