Running out of reality to blame, they got to make stories.
Man if only it was actually like how cars are regulated.
Required training, tests, insurance needs and has to be safe for others.
It is more than is needed for gun ownership. The arsenal I inherited required nothing. The one I have purchased required a 48 hour wait I think it was. In none of the cases did I have to prove I knew how to handle a firearm.
Do you really think requiring more training before getting a driver’s license wouldn’t be used to disenfranchise minorities?
I mean you can but it would need a lot of modifications first.
Not that you can get most of them going on your own anyway
Pfft, what are cops gonna do, pull me over? Im in a freaking F1 car, good luck!
Follow me for more life-hacks.
What an interesting concept. Insuring the gun owner could really have merit. Then you’d have a company who would be very heavily invested in the responsibility of the gun owner, as well as needing a record of firearms owned to be insured.
You’d also have pressure on firearms manufacturers and regulatory bodies because the insurance companies covering the owners would do everything in their power to shift blame away from their customers, so as to avoid paying out on the policies. Suddenly you have a lot of money behind preventing accidental discharge, etc
You’d also increase the cost of responsible ownership considerably, while irresponsible owners would be largely unaffected…
Yes but… A lot of shooters would not seek that insurance. Steal guns, ghost guns, or simply not give a fuck about the law since they’re going to break it anyways.
In my opinion, the root issue is a moral/mental one. Do the shooters believe they are killing? Are they “saving”? Are they not real people? Etc. If you don’t believe people are real, you’re not really hurting anyone.
A lot of shooters would not seek that insurance
Just like a lot of people who accrue lots of driving violations don’t bother insuring their own cars.
And yet, a lack of insurance is easily the difference between a ticket and ending up in jail with a massive fine, even more points on your license, and your car impounded for $200/day. So pretty much everyone short of those who have their licences revoked, or those who cannot even be insured anymore, will still try to get insurance any way they can.
It’s no different.
You’re just creating a tax on the poor for them to practice a constitutional right. Insurance providers 1. Aren’t going to pay out anyway, that’s their whole thing, so much like health insurance, it’s money being thrown away every month, and 2. You’re adding another middleman from an industry most people think is greedy/corrupt AF, and why would that ever be a good thing? Plus, you know damn well once the insurance companies get involved, all of a sudden minority gun ownership numbers are going to drop because, mysteriously, all of their premiums shot up overnight for totally racist/homophobic/transphobic/misogynistic unknown reasons.
I’m all for requiring more training, or licensing, background checks should be required for every gun sale, I’m just saying this to show I fully support gun control measures.
Require more training, but it needs to be made affordable. Every gun control bill is just banning firearm models, or limiting magazine capacities, or whatever. None of them every talk about subsidizing firearms training for those who need or want it. Even my blue state only requires one 8-hour class and one live-fire test to get your conceal carry permit, and the instructors even talked about how people ask about taking further training, but when they hear the cost and time (almost all the classes require taking time off work, which some can’t do) involved, they just say they can’t afford it and they’ll just watch YouTube or whatever.
Edit: Not sure how “creating an unnecessary monetary barrier turns a constitutional right into a constitutional privilege for the rich, all while enrichening a corrupt industry that will absolutely fuck this up” is such a controversial take, especially when I’ve added that training courses should be mandatory and subsidized so that finances aren’t a barrier…
Just like the constitutional right to free speech, you’re not free of the consequences of your speech. Be a responsible owner and your. Insurance rates stay low but when you’re not, you’re the one paying for your mistakes
You may think you want guns regulated like cars, probably because you heard it somewhere and thought, “yeah, that seems reasonable”.
But if you stop and think about how cars are actually regulated vs how guns are actually regulated, I think you’ll maybe see that it’s perhaps not so reasonable an idea after all.
First and foremost, guns are already regulated in significant ways that cars are not. For example, requiring background checks, prohibiting purchasing/owning by particular groups of people (e.g., felons, drug addicts, domestic abusers), and numerous places where you’re not allowed to take them.
None of those restrictions apply to cars (though maybe they should), so “regulating guns like cars” implies rolling back those restrictions on guns. (Otherwise it wouldn’t actually be “like cars”, would it?)
Second, a lot of restrictions on cars are for common use, and the minute you fall outside of that, many of those regulations don’t apply.
For example, in many (maybe the majority of? Not sure) states, the whole license/registration/insurance requirement only applies to vehicles that are operated on public roads (of course, your bank will require insurance if you finance, regardless).
So a farmer could buy a brand new pickup for cash, sign an affidavit saying it won’t be operated on public roads, have it delivered by flatbed truck to his farm, then his 14 year old kid could drive it around all day with no license, registration, or insurance, and everything is (potentially, depending on the state) completely within the law as long as it stays on the farm.
There are parallels that can be drawn with gun purchases for use on private property, but hopefully you get my point by now.
So for sure, if you want more/better gun regulations, then by all means, advocate for that. But please don’t suggest that we regulate guns like we do cars because that’s a terrible idea.
When people say “regulate guns like cars” all they mean is to add the requirements of a licence, tracking ownership and sale, and proof of training.
It’s a short hand, meant to be snappy, like all political phrases (BLM?). So next time you see the phrase be sure to respond to that argument because that’s all anyone is really talking about when they use that phrase.
So, yes. I’m well aware of that. But thank you (and I mean that sincerely!) for pointing that out. I’ll explain…
But first, as an aside, I’ll say I’m not a fan of snappy when it’s also grossly imprecise (or worse, dishonest). There’s too much dishonesty and “spin” in politics as it is, and we could do with less. But I digress…
Anyway, while you’re correct about it being shorthand, I submit that there are people that don’t follow gun-related politics, but have heard “regulate guns like the cars” and take it to mean exactly that because they’re unaware that it has a deeper meaning.
In fact, there are 2 (unrelated) people in my friend group that believed this, until I told them basically what I wrote above. I didn’t do it as some sort of gotcha - they’re my friends - I want them to be able to make informed decisions based on facts. And they’re not dumb people - they were just ignorant of the issue and parroting said snappy phrase without understanding it was shorthand for something different. Now they have a better understanding of the topic, and a better understanding of what kind of regulations they do and don’t support. I don’t agree with their positions 100%, but that’s fine. My goal was to educate and get them thinking about it, not convert.
So, with respect, I intend to ignore your suggestion about how to respond to this phrase in the future, for as long as it keeps being used in the same way without any additional explanation. Not because I’m trying to be an agitator (I’m not), but because I think this discourse is helpful for bystanders that aren’t steeped in this stuff, so that they don’t misunderstand.
After all, if there were 2 people in my little friend group that didn’t understand the phrase as shorthand, there are probably plenty more out there.
And to that end, thanks again for helping by posting the missing “additional explanation”.
Tracking ownership?! Have you thought this through?!
I’m an outspoken liberal gun owner. I sure as hell don’t want on a Trump list of bad guys.
I want insurance, like with a car, to ensure at least some restitution for their mistakes, so irresponsible gun owners find it more expensive to encourage better practices, and easy to prove jail time for no insurance
No one really cares about tracking weapons, except it’s the only way to find irresponsible owners. An insurance mandate might be a better way
Gun ownership is a right protected under the 2nd amendment. If cars had been around during the revolutionary war then perhaps there would have been an amendment as well. But as it is cars can be regulated to a larger degree as they are not a protected right under our constitution.
Constitution doesn’t say anything about banning regulations on guns.
Almost calls for it by saying we need to make sure they’re well maintained
If it is not stated in the constitution then the right falls to the states. Fortunately gun rights are guaranteed for both state militias and citizens under 2A in the constitution.
2nd Amendment: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
You don’t need any of that if you don’t go on public roads. Many a farm truck has been driven by kids.
And no one cares about what you do with your guns if you’re out in the boonies where you can’t hurt anyone else.
Washington State just legislated a legal requirement that all gun purchases must include proof of a completed gun safety course. Unfortunately in typical government fashion, they did it in the stupidest way possible. It’s an online class that can be finished in 5 minutes, you have to bring printed proof of it every time instead of storing the status somewhere, and there’s no exemption for law enforcement, military, or scouts. It would be great if it was an actual gun safety course and they exempted people with a proven history of gun safety training.
God I wish we could apply that to every right, y’know? Like, wouldn’t it be great if we could test people before they could vote, so that we knew that they understood the functions of the different branches of gov’t, the limitations, the history of legislation, the origins of common law and where our style of government comes from… It would be so wonderful if rights weren’t really rights at all, but were privileges only given to the most well educated and intelligent people.
Maybe even some literacy tests.
Oh, or if you needed a license and credentials in order to speak in public! That would be awesome! Or if you needed to be an attorney to assert your right to remain silent!
“providing evidence that you won’t be a danger before being allowed to have a weapon? HOW DARE YOU!”
…That’s a logical impossibility though. You can’t prove a negative.
And now we’re right back to laws that prevented non-white people from owning firearms.
The 2nd amendment doesn’t give the right to all Americans to have guns, it simply provisions a well regulated militia. Right now we don’t have sufficient regulation to keep gun violence at a reasonable rate, so we clearly don’t have a well regulated militia as detailed in the constitution
Categorically false. When you look at the circumstances surrounding the drafting of 2A, it’s clear what the framers intended. (EVERY able-bodied, white, adult male was a member of the militia. They were obligated to provide their own militarily-suitable arms, and were likewise obligated to train themselves in their use. Moreover, the existence of the right was a holdover from English common law, which recognized the right of people to be armed. Oh, and the first battle of the American Revolution? It was because the British were trying to seize arms, including a cannon, that the people had been using to protect themselves from First Nations peoples.) When you look at the debate that surrounded the National Firearms Act of 1934, it’s clear that they knew a ban wouldn’t pass court review; hence the reason that the opted for a tax. (And, BTW, they originally intended to include pistols; that fact that ‘short barrel rifles’ are part of the NFA today is because they were sloppy in making the edits prior to passage.) When you look at nearly 250 years of precedent, it’s clear that it’s an individual right. And when you look at SCOTUS rulings–Heller v. D.C., McDonald v. Chicago, Bruen v. NYSPRA–it’s definite.
BTW, “well regulated” at the time was understood to mean trained, specifically people that knew how to use the arms they had the right to possess.
Wouldn’t be great if the police could just search anyone for any reason (or no reason) at any time unless they have obtained a privacy permit? Think of how many criminals they could catch, including people who shouldn’t have guns, if they could just set up road blocks and strip search everyone who comes through (except those with permits, obviously). For good measure they should make us all take off our shoes too.
I enjoy and own guns. Ive used them for hunting, I’ve used one in self defense (no shots fired). Sensible laws regarding guns are just fine by me.
When you say “sensible laws”, you’re saying that anyone who disagrees is not sensible. It’s shorthand for, “Agree with me or you’re a fool.”
Think on that argument, think on those words.
Do you know what a metaphor is?
is it where you make up a fake scenario
Yes, that’s generally how metaphors work, making a difficult concept easier for people to understand by explaining it in different terms with a hypothetical. I’m glad I could help you learn this.
and then get outrage from it?
Are you talking about the guy you’re responding to? He doesn’t seem very outraged, to me. Or do you mean the guy posting the screenshot on reddit – you got “rage” from ‘gun control in a nutshell’ – how, exactly? That doesn’t sound like frothing at the mouth to me, that sounds like someone making a point.
What a strange comment.
A metaphor is like healthcare here in the US. Not everybody gets it, and even if you do you’ll often find out it’s not great.
It must be nice up there on your high horse, all educated and sober.
Seriously, you’re absolutely right and I’m very surprised I wasn’t called out for that sooner. I had several very stupid replies that were very funny to me after a bunch of whisky, and I thought this one was funnier than “No, what’s it for?”
I wonder how they feel about sobriety checkpoints.
That’s essentially how gun control works though.
Maybe the biggest workout your AR-15 gets is the monthly 2-gun PCSL match. But your state has decided that a mass murder in a different state is a good enough reason to ban semi-automatic rifles with box magazines, and now you’re a felon for simply possessing something that was legal when you bought it.
And there’s not really an end point, because all the bans in the world don’t change human nature. Germany is cracking down on people carrying pocket knives because stabbings are up sharply. In England you can’t carry a screwdriver without good cause. Banning tools doesn’t change the material circumstances that lead to violence. (Not that either Republicans or Democrats want to do that; Dems want to ban guns, Republicans want to ban anyone that isn’t a straight white christian from owning them.)
possessing something that was legal when you bought it
I’m there ATM, yet the first thing I ever learned about the law in school was the notion of “grandfathering”.
Germany is cracking down on people carrying pocket knives because stabbings are up sharply. In England you can’t carry a screwdriver without good cause.
And all of that is true, read it right here in lemmy, and far beyond weird to my sensibilities.
I’m there ATM, yet the first thing I ever learned about the law in school was the notion of “grandfathering”.
Supposed to be a thing, and yet isn’t, not really. You can talk about the ‘takings’ clause, too. What states may do is ban a thing, and require you to turn it in, and then give you what the state thinks is a just compensation. Or insist that, while you can own it, you can never sell or otherwise transfer it, which undercuts the idea of ownership of a thing in the first place.
The takings clause applies only to real property. If you’re talking about personal property, it is never a taking.
Things can be outlawed. It’s called contraband. You’re not entitled to anything.
Or, you could weld a ten round magazine into place and go about your business as not a criminal. There’s always the choice to be responsible.
How, exactly, are you going to load a Glock that has a magazine welded into place?
If you are a responsible gun owner who would only ever need a gun for self defense, then you will never need to reload.
Very painfully. Laws usually allow pistols to operate with removable magazines still. If they want to brick your weapon they should buy it off you.
Slippery slope fallacy, huh? How about we start the conversation with agreeing that we want to reduce deaths and injuries from firearms, and figure out a sensible way to do that?
Sure. And I can happily give you some great ideas that don’t infringe on fundamental civil rights.
Most violent crime is a result of material circumstances, so change the circumstances. Make income and wealth more equal through tax policy so that there’s less disparity between the worst-off and the best. (Yes, I think even a single billionaire is a failure.) Adequately fund public education, and stop letting conservatives steer money towards charter and magnet school. Reform the criminal justice system to focus on reform instead of punishment. Create a single-payer health system so that no one has to drown in medical debt, and start seriously funding public mental health systems. (My first therapist in Chicago had been in public mental health until the city slashed the budget–again–and he lost his job. He went from working with severely mentally ill homeless people–people who desperately needed the help–to high-functioning autistic people like me that just kind of suck at being human.) Build and adequately fund high-density public housing so that no one has to live in a ghetto. And, maybe most importantly, start funding community programs, like sports leagues, gardening groups, and the like, all on the public dime, so that people can start building real-life connections.
Fucks sake, we’re nearly the richest country in the world, we can do this shit.
Banning tools doesn’t change the material circumstances that lead to violence.
I agree, however some tools can bring about a lot more violence in a much shorter time than others. I’d rather try to escape someone with a knife than someone with a gun.
I think I’d have an even easier time avoiding someone trying to attack me with a pressure cooker than someone trying to attack me with a knife.