cross-posted from: https://lemmy.zip/post/614691
Video: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-66252974
Someone new got approved to burn another one outside the Iraqi embassy in Stockholm, that’s why there’s a new reaction.
Tbh I personally don’t think it should be allowed to actively provoke and incite hatred against an ethnic group. Sweden already has a law specifically against this (incitement against ethnic group), which lists religious belief as a group covered by the law. However, there has only been one case that went to the courts trying specifically a Quran burning, and the context was a bit different so it was dismissed. The Quran burning previous to the one in the article has been reported to the police, and imo it should go to trial so we can test the limits of the incitement law. That Quran was burned directly as a statement outside a mosque, during Eid, which is a context that could be illegal under that law.
To clarify, people should be able to burn whatever books and symbols they want and express whatever vile or justified opinions they have under freedom of speech in Sweden- but not in every context and forum everywhere, as direct provocation and incitement. This is actually the majority opinion of Swedes (source in Swedish).
But we’ll see what happens. I discussed this with a lawyer I know, who agreed that it should be prosecuted and go to trial so we can see how it fares in court.
I think it’s stupid, moronic, and childish to burn Qur’ans and other associated acts of deliberate provocation, but (and this is admittedly the American in me speaking), I’d very strongly be against it being a crime. The ability to tolerate strong disagreements with your own closely held beliefs is a foundational pillar of a multi-cultural and tolerant society.
Countless acts of terror have been committed in the name of the Bible, and I’m rather uncomfortable with the idea of being legally obligated to have any amount of reverence to it.
Let’s separate a hate crime (incitement against ethnic group) from blasphemy laws- we definitely do not want blasphemy laws in Sweden. Critique against religions is protected free speech, as it should be.
What isn’t protected, is your right to protest in EVERY way at EVERY place and EVERY time. Just like defamation laws are a specific reduction to the right to free speech, one can morally argue that if the intention of certain speech is to defame, grossly disrespect, provoke and incite certain protected groups of people, a reduction to the right to free speech is justified in certain contexts. I know lots of people disagree, all I’m saying is that there’s an argument for limiting free speech in some contexts (which we already do).
Feel free to have a Quran barbecue in your own back yard, but don’t throw a bacon-and-Quran barbecue in front of a mosque during Eid. You are also, certainly, allowed to criticize Islam wherever and whenever you want, that is protected speech. It’s just no longer protected when the context, manner and purpose of an action or message tips the scales from critique to incitement or hate speech.
An example of someone who actually was convicted of incitement against ethnic groups in Sweden in 2020, was a junior high school student who carved a swastika into a desk. If that is covered under the incitement law, burning the Quran in the recent contexts should be too imo (in front of embassies to Muslim countries, or mosques during the biggest Muslim holiday).
America is extreme in it’s own right with regards to free speech laws compared to the rest of the Western world. I respect that position, but don’t agree with it.
A school is not a public place, and so that isn’t an equivalent example. If the sidewalk in front of the Masjid is a public area, you should legally be able to throw a bacon-and-Koran barbecue during Eid. There is no world where you can punish people for doing that and not end up on a slippery slope that jeopardizes freedom of expression.
I understand what you’re saying, but to actually act on that and try to put it into law would be foolish.
To be clear, I think we both agree that there is a lot of nuance and grey area in these kinds of questions, and I think it’s really just a matter of where we think the lines ought to be, which is a very hard question given the lack of any clear objective standards here. I might say that a swastika is a very clear expression of support for the idea that large swaths of society should be systematically murdered, and that’s more than sufficiently past a line of permissiveness. Surely burning a swastika and any other expression of strong disagreement with literal Nazism should be completely protected.
At the same time, as a gay man, Islamist ideals represent a very direct threat to my own ability to safely exist in society. Should I not be able to express my disapproval of that? If I can, in what ways exactly should I be allowed to, where is the line I cannot cross, and why is there precisely? The Muslim Brotherhood, for instance, is an explicitly Islamist party with very specific policy goals. Its flag also features a Qur’an on it. If Muslims were to be grievously offended by its burning, should it thus be illegal for me to burn the flag of an organization that explicitly advocates my own murder? The Qur’an itself (not to mention the Bible) similarly advocates for my own personal harm. You mention “certain protected groups of people” in your comment; are LGBT not included in that? Do we not get to stand up against ideals that advocate for our own destruction?
I should add that I’ve spent a significant amount of time in Arab countries, speak Arabic myself, and have had many wonderful experiences with Muslims around the world. I actually made an indefinite move to Jordan after university, and while I didn’t wind up being able to stick around, it was an excellent time, I always felt very welcomed and safe, and just generally speaking, I have a very warm and positive impression of Muslims. I’m very much not actually advocating for these kinds of protests, and I think the people who do them are being deliberately inciteful bigoted idiots. My only point here is that these kinds of question are very complicated, and to that end, I’m not personally super comfortable with the government unilaterally deciding what the answers to them are.
I also want to make it expliticly clear that I am very aware of how various Islamophobic groups try to use homophobia in Muslims as a wedge to try to advocate against immigration, multculturalism, and as proof that Muslims are somehow incompatible with western society, which is always amusing to see given that the people who do this are almost universally homophobic social conservatives themselves. I’m strongly against that as well.
The swasitka anecdote is a false equivalency. Schools are not part of the public forum, so freedom of speech also should not fully apply there. What would have happened if said school boy would have drawn a swastika on, idk, the sidewalk of the street leading up to the school?
Controversial opinion of an atheist:
Most religion is incitement to hate-crimes. While I think Sweden has probably bigger Christian societies and should probably rather burn bibles, the guy burning the Quran is an Iraqi, and therefore choosing the Quran is understandable. Afaik, he protested against his own former repression by Muslim religion whe still lived in Iraq.
Religion is notoriously used to reduce other people’s freedom. Be it fundamental Christians e.g. in the US or Poland denying healthcare to pregnant women, be it the atrocities committed by the “moral police” in Iran, be it other religions killing people for their sexuality. I support the idea that religious law should be limited to followers of that religion, and no person should be forced in any way to follow or keeps following any religion. Those are fundamental human rights principles in my eyes.
I mean, as a fellow atheist I don’t disagree. What I’m saying is that there are groups that are targeted (in Swedish society) specifically for their affiliation with a religion, their sexual orientation etc. Protesting religions is fine and IS protected speech.
But certain actions are only meant to provoke, disrespect and incite. The Iraqi guy is well within his rights to protest and criticize Islam; the question here is whether the manner of his “protest” was protected speech or if choosing that specific action, time and place for his protest, all taken together, tip the scales from valid and protected religious critique into something else. If the main intent was to incite, disrespect and provoke, it might not be protected speech.
That said, I’m not a fan of most religions. Specifically when religion is used as a justification to impose prescriptive and restrictive rules on others both within and outside of that religion (pro life, gender roles, prescriptive clothing like Muslim head coverings, prescriptive rules regarding birth control or sex, discrimination or persecution of LGBTQ people etc).
Why is being disrespectful towards religions even an issue? I do not respect them and have in fact strong contempt for religions. I consider islam a new cancer growing, after we finally managed to largely push Christianity out of policy making and into the realm of personal choice in the west.
which lists religious belief as a group covered by the law
If followers of a denomination of the Invisible pink unicorn (bbHhh) are provoked by people wearing pink clothes because one of their holy books says such people should receive the death penalty, does that therefor make wearing pink clothes illegal in Sweden?
No, it doesn’t? Laws are interpreted by legal practitioners and judges, and the intentionality of the law is taken into account. One of the main intentions of this particular law is protecting Jews from persecution, and protecting Muslims from the same isn’t a huge stretch. Sure, you could argue that invisible pink unicorn followers are a protected group, but no one would take you seriously in Sweden. You are arguing an extreme interpretation in bad faith.
Yes, but the law you proposed would allow that to happen. That isn’t a straw man, it’s your proposed idea not being very good.
If you feign ignorance, and pretend that you don’t know the difference between a belief held by billions of humans, and some corny, uncreative shit you just came up with off the top of your head, does that therefore make you an actual dumbass?
If it were a Bible or a Torah that was burned we wouldn’t be having this conversation now because it wouldn’t have even made the news. There is only one major religion that reacts violently to incidents like this. I think that’s the point OP was making and it’s a valid one.
Jokes on them, there were like ten korans in that building.
Superstitious barbarians.
The religion of peace strikes again?
Even the most peaceful person is going to get a little pissed if you burn something they hold sacred, mockingly, and then get ready to do it several times again. (After you’ve seen the distress it causes)
Oh no, a book was burned.
What kind of religion encourages violence over something so trivial?
Maybe. Being a little pissed is everyone’s right. So, I agree with you.
Maybe you will agree that only criminally deranged idiots will turn to violence over the damaging of a book.
It’s not the damage to the book necessarily, but the complete lack of respect and intention to cause anger.
It would kind of be like burning a Constitution and American Flag on Independence Day in front of the Capitol or maybe Washington Monument. Or lighting a cross on fire in front of the Lincoln memorial on Juneteenth or MLK Jr. Day. Or setting up Swastikas in front of synagogues during Passover.
It’s essentially intentionally spreading hate. Now, if you burn a Torah, Qu’ran, and Bible as an anti-religion demonstration on some random day of the year, that’s a completely different thing. But doing such a demonstration on a religion’s holiest of days in front of that religion’s places of worship is a very different matter.
Meanwhile, these people routinely chant “death to America”, and I, an American, am supposed to take it in stride.
