The only way for libertarianism to work is if every human had only good intentions. Since that’s simply never going to happen libertarianism will never work. Just my opinion feel free to disagree.
Libertarianism is a theory espoused to those with good intentions by people that have bad intentions.
It doesn’t work for almost anyone. But it super works for some. That’s the point.
It doesn’t work for almost anyone
You don’t believe that upholding, and maximising individual rights, and freedoms is a net positive?
You’re forcing a black-and-white dichotomy where one does not exist, which is a nice oversimplification that’s the exact sort of thing I’m talking about.
Everyone loves freedom! Like the freedom to:
- pay a child to work in a mine
- schedule workers for 80+ hours a week
- drive without speed limits
- use as much water out of the local river as desired
- dump waste into that same river
- sell unregulated, untested medicine
So obviously there are “freedoms” that mainly serve to infringe on the actual freedoms of others. Those just happen to be the ones that libertarians don’t talk about so much but are really what they’re after.
The problem is that it doesn’t work even if everyone has good intentions. It needs everyone to agree on what “good intentions” even means.
I think you are possibly confusing libertarianism with anarchism. Libertarianism does not make the argument that the state is well functioning without a central authoritative mediating body – I point you to the model of a Nightwatchman State.
I personally don’t fully agree. Libertarianism just doesn’t work at all. It is not even a complete system from a logical sense. It falls apart when faced with basic scrutiny, or they just theorize a system that’s basically the same as a central government but with a private entity name stamped on it.
It is an ideology stemming from a basic principle, but they sadly don’t seem to think of the entire system as a whole.
hey just theorize a system that’s basically the same as a central government but with a private entity name stamped on it.
I don’t believe that any informed libertarian would advocate for a corporatocracy.
Libertarianism just doesn’t work at all. It is not even a complete system from a logical sense. It falls apart when faced with basic scrutiny
Would you be able to give some specific examples to back up your claim?
I’d be happy to tackle this with you, but just to avoid the frequent “actually, this isn’t libertarianism, this is the other X system”, can you please define libertarianism from your perspective?
Also there’s the fact that nearly everybody’s idea of freedom is drastically different and some people’s freedoms infringe on others.
Also there’s the fact that nearly everybody’s idea of freedom is drastically different
Libertarianism seeks to maximise freedom.
some people’s freedoms infringe on others.
Libertarianism does not, in any way, shape, or form, advocate the idea that one is able infringe on the rights, and freedoms of another without their consent. One should not be allowed to impart a cost on another without their consent, or proper compensation for damages.
What if you think you should be able to enjoy peace and quiet and your neighbour wants to play loud music constantly?
Who’s freedoms do you infringe so the other one can have theirs?
Libertarianism also works if there is information about bad people and good people are free to avoid them.
Freedom of information and freedom of action.
It’s easier to avoid bad people in free markets than it is to prevent them from taking and abusing positions of power in a powerful state.
Except freedom of information and freedom of action are two of the first things to die without regulation. Company towns and crooked newspapers are hallmarks of low-regulation.
It’s easier to vote bad people out of positions of power in a powerful state than it is to prevent them from abusing executive roles in powerful conglomerates.
Is it still libertarianism if those freedoms don’t exist anymore? I don’t think libertarians argue for no regulations.
Regarding the bad people, the trick is that bad people don’t look bad, much like captured markets offer the illusion of choice. So it’s difficult to vote them out.
The thing is that we argue different moments in development. You compare the correction of the corrupted states whereas I was talking about maintaining the functioning states.
It’s just like socialism; great concept, but impossible to perfectly implement. That said, I’d still prefer a system where I maintain independence and freedom than any alternative since humans are inherently are own largest problems.
I’d prefer a system similar to what we have in germany right now as it is a mix of socialism and capitalism in a way that reduces the exploitation that free market capitalism brings. Complete freedom in market almost always leads to exploitation which is terrible
How exactly does Germany reduce exploitation from capitalism? Is it labor laws? I would like to remind you that having social programs and laws that benefit the working class is not socialism.
What, specifically, are you meaning when you use the term “capitalism”? There is a difference, for example, between an anarcho-capitalist, or fundamentally free market, and a competitive free market. One is alright with the existance of monopolistic/anti-competitive behaviour, and the other is not.
Respectfully, I think the opposite. I think, for the most part, a free® market naturally benefits humans with good intentions and harms those with bad intentions.
For example, let’s say in a free market, somebody wanted to start a business with horrible working conditions, horrible salary, horrible everything. Now, if the economy is real bad then people might work there, but for the most part, that business is going to fail because people won’t work there, and would choose other jobs instead. So in this case, a free market actually incentivizes “good intentions”. The business owner will have to improve work conditions, salary, etc. so that people will work there instead of elsewhere.
And one of the important aspects of a free market is the ability to start a competing business. If there was a company with overall poor working conditions and salary, it would highly incentivize someone to start a new company with better conditions, because they could pull in all the workers from the other company.
And look, I’m not saying this is fool proof and works 100% of the time, and I’m not saying there shouldn’t be a healthy amount of regulation. But if you compare this to an economic system where businesses are run by the government, you can simply just be stuck with shitty work conditions and shitty salary, and not be able to do anything about it.
That’s fine to disagree. I used to believe this back when I took Econ classes in college, every Econ professor is a libertarian lmao. I just don’t think a free market would punish bad actors. Tons of people turn a blind eye to anything as long as costs are cheap
free market would punish bad actors
The free market punishing bad actors (depending on how we are defining bad actors) is inherently dependent on the morals of the consumer.
Tons of people turn a blind eye to anything as long as costs are cheap
The question would then become: “Whose morals are truly virtuous?”.
That only works when worker are less replaceable and desperate. Their are a lots of open job positions today but most pay less than the cost of living.
Lots of open job positions is very healthy for the economy, it gives the worker the ability to choose, and it makes companies have to compete. A ton of companies are literally being forced to increase their wages in order to get enough employees.
My concern is that “bad product” to the consumer is mostly a matter of price and quality; environmental impact, legality, and even employee safety rank much lower with the average person as far as choosing where to spend their money. Companies can and do operate for years on the suffering of the lower class in particular, often openly doing so, and still make oodles of money.
Firstly, I think it completely aligns with libertarian principles to regulate environmental impact. If a company pollutes the airs and rivers, that physical affects everybody.
Secondly, yeah, it is sad that many consumers will turn a blind eye to poor working conditions and environmental impact … but I do think there is a limit. And honestly, most of the big companies in our nation are making some attempt to improve environmental conditions, probably because they know that some people will stop buying their product if they don’t. It’s not a lot, but I think the fact that it’s happening at all is some proof that companies can certainly be pressured into doing the right thing without legislation.
What I like about the free-ish markets is that it at least gives you a personal choice. If you don’t want to support a business, you don’t have to. It sucks if other people support it, but let’s be honest, if like 50% of the country wants to support a business that you don’t like, then what can you expect?
That’s where operating it using Algocracy comes in.
Yeah the main lesson I’ve taken away from the last decade of cryptocurrency instability, NFTs, and things like algorithmically generated judicial sentencing guidelines that perpetuated the existing racial biases while making them seem more legitimate because “the computer can’t be wrong” is that we should run our whole society with them.
Sure.
Algocracy uses algorithms to inform societal decisions, while Blockchain is a transparent, decentralized ledger system. People often confuse cryptocurrencies with the underlying Blockchain technology, even though they serve different purposes.
Comparing the challenges of Algocracy to the volatility of cryptocurrencies is like assessing the potential of online commerce based on early internet connectivity issues.
Biases in Algocracy are the result of poor design. With meticulous design and continuous oversight, the potential of Algocracy can be fully realized.
Sure. I don’t think anybody is arguing that there is any country that couldn’t give their regulations a once-over and improve things by removing a few counter-productive ones here and there.
That’s not what American style libertarians are actually arguing when they say they want deregulation though, is it?
That’s generally the type of thing libertarians get upset about. Or shit like floral licensing or cracking down on people braiding hair (this is generally black people, obviously) or the bazillion other types of regulatory capture. Farm subsidies and ethanol mandates/fuel subsidies are also a shitshow.
Exactly. It’s stupid to be like libertarians and take a hardline stance on “regulations always bad!!” or “regulations always good!!”. A regulation that bans building dense, walkable communities is bad and needs to be eliminated. Likewise, regulations that ban teachers from talking about the existence of gay people are also bad and need to be eliminated.
Just like we try to use regulations for good, many others use regulations for ill. It will always be context-specific specific whether we need more regulation or deregulation.
When actual libertarians get a chance to run a town, they don’t start by eliminating zoning laws. This is the kind of thing that happens instead.
I’m not surprised by the fact it did collapse, but i’m surprised that libertarians, of all people, did not try to solve the bear problem using extensive amounts of firepower.
You talk as if benefiting the ruling class was an unwanted consequence of these laws. It’s not. The markets need to be free for the rich to benefit but restricted for the rich to benefit. And maybe some crumbs will fall of the table and the poors will think that the rich are so generous.
“talk as if” and “literally said” are two wholly different things. They never said that, what are you talking about?
No, there should be rules to benefit the poor. But many of the laws now in effect in particular in the US are specifically not built for that. So many laws would better be dropped than enforced, and many are missing.
That’s the irony.
But Density means communism to them so they’re suddenly fine with regulations and taxes that prop up an unsustainable suburban ponzi scheme because that’s the lie sold about the American Dream.
When they see how unaffordable housing has become they say, “good, my house is more expensive.”
The difference is that they think that gatekeeping poor people from services in order to bring costs down for everyone else is valid. I’ve seen libertarians argue that the solution to tuition and healthcare being expensive is to stop helping poor people, because that will drive demand down and lower prices for people who can already afford it. I’ve seen libertarians argue that the solution to people scalping groceries is to let grocery stores price gouge. Their solutions only ever involve helping people who don’t need help at the expense of people who do. Libertarianism is “me, me, me right now now now” dressed up in fancy language. It’s the political philosophy of a tumor.
Libertarianism is a great system if you’re using it as a backdrop for a cyberpunk dystopia.
Yeah way too many people don’t recognize the methods of passive genocide as being such.
“We’re not going to put you in death camps per se; we’re just going to lock you out of every effective means of social and financial advancement, continually reduce the amount of money you’re able to make to feed yourself, and also refuse to feed, shelter, or clothe you. What’s the problem? It’s not like we’re putting you in death camps.”
“We live in a society” - the jonkler
“Not if I can help it” - libertarians
As far as I can tell, the ones with money want a free hand to do whatever they want to others without repercussion, and the ones without money are willfully drinking the Kool Aid and being led around by the nose philosophically.
