idk, I feel like we could take a much better approach to this. Instead of just mocking them, maybe point out how they maybe can’t trust where they got their idea of who trump was, and maybe to stop supporting him?
“If you believed x, maybe it’s time to look at who told you x and whether they’re a trustworthy source of information”
This happened in the UK too with Brexit. When things turned out badly, in the exact way as was predicted, it was “this isn’t what I voted for”. But the problem was never with the vote itself, it was always the fault of politicians not implementing things correctly, it was the EU’s fault for not giving them what they wanted although they voted to be outside of it, experts didn’t warn them enough although they ridiculed said experts because the experts didn’t went along with the Brexit beliefs.
It’s like trying to be Scully and going against Mulder’s “I want to believe”.
Lots of people responding here are missing your point. If somebody you know voted for Trump is now struggling to understand what’s going on, and they voice this thought to you, take it as an opportunity. You shouldn’t tell them what to do (ie “Don’t watch Fox News”), but rather, follow the Socratic Method to guide them to question their sources. Start small - their entire worldview won’t shatter in one conversation. But if you see cracks forming in their beliefs, that’s something worth fostering.
No, not everybody is going to see the light. It’s important to know your “audience.” If you don’t believe they’re asking in good faith, or if you’re not comfortable engaging with them, then please don’t do it. At the same time, although it would feel really good to throw a We told you so! at them, it’s better saved for rants among like-minds. Responding with such hostility to somebody who already feels used and betrayed isn’t going to help them find their way back to reality.
Remember that we are going to need to be as united as possible on this war against the oligarchs. Whether someone has seen this threat coming for years, or only just now realized what’s going on, it’s not going to matter in the big picture. It’s better to educate than isolate.
Right, democrats are the enlightened bunch and republicans are fumbling in the dark. The mythology continues.
Lots of people responding here are missing your point
No, they’re making a counter-point, that’s not the same thing. Their point is:
If somebody you know voted for Trump is now struggling to understand what’s going on, and they voice this thought to you, take it as an opportunity
To laugh in their faces and mock them, as they deserve. Because these people have already gotten the nice attempts, and can now eat shit
This works when no faith is involved. Trumpists are a cult. People who believe in something at an irrational level (like what happens with religious fundamentalists) can’t be reasoned with. They are way beyond the point where reason works with them. Now only a very hard wake up in the form of a traumatic event will work for them.
Have you ever tried to convince a very religious person that their god doesn’t exist? Same thing.
Fuck that.
We got in this situation from our side being too polite and dismissive. The only language that they understand is sophomoric and emotional, so it is time to communicate with them in the only way they know how. We tried rationally explaining what was going to happen. It’s happening, now it’s time to rub their nose in it and point out that their inability to engage their brain landed all of us in this situation. Then hope to God some neurons dust themselves off and start firing.
No he isn’t. They’re all fucking thrilled. Where are y’all getting this shit? Trump voters are tap dancing right now.
There are some stories of trump voters that had their immigrant wifes deported and they are totally shocked, because “shes one of the good ones”
I saw a news story from conservative women who have government jobs that are now realizing DEI means women too, not just black . Not saying they’re rational but they’re out there
There’s also teachers who voted for Trump that are surprised he’s going to dismantle the department of education and freeze the federal funding they depend on.
One of the ones in my office openly said there are three words he thinks need to come back “the r-word, the f-word, and you know the other one”. They are emboldened and giddy
The fact that they don’t feel (yet) bold enough to say the actual words when discussing this is telling. I’d love to see them pull that shit in front of the wrong person and get popped in the face.
Like 60% of the male Latino vote went to trump, and I’ve seen Trump support shirts among those rounded up by ICE, so some of them are in the Find Out phase.
There’s also the idiot Arabic groups that helped get Trump in power by demonizing Harris then are all shocked Pikachu when Trump turned out to be exponentially worse.
There’s also the idiot Arabic groups that helped get Trump in power by demonizing Harris then are all shocked Pikachu when Trump turned out to be exponentially worse.
“Demonising Harris” here is a shitty euphemism for “Democrats refused to stop supporting genocide then told any and all voters, but especially Arab voters who might have particularly cared, to fuck off”, with the shocked pikachu in practice being Democrats who are surprised when telling voters to fuck off over concerns about genocide did not help them turn out the vote to beat Trump.
Then being racist about those same minorities by blaming the election loss on “Arabic groups” after monstering them as saboteurs and belittling their concerns repeatedly.
Almost like anyone with 2 brain cells could have told you that’s both bad policy and bad campaign strategy.
In an Oct. 16 memo, the leading super PAC supporting Ms. Harris raised alarms about being outspent on television. The group, Future Forward, said in the memo, which was first reported by The Washington Post, that it would be “difficult for anyone” but the Harris team to close the gap because of the higher ad rates that super PACs pay.
It was hardly Future Forward’s only frustration. Another memo, issued days later, pointed out “very high-performing ads that have yet to get a big spend.” One ad, Future Forward said, had ranked in the “100th percentile” — meaning it was the most effective — yet it had virtually never been aired.
Campaign officials, meanwhile, were frustrated that Future Forward sat on so much of its money until the final weeks, forcing the campaign to spend more on the airwaves earlier.
Another Harris challenge: After raising $1 billion in less than three months, a bevy of consultants, allies and others were often angling for a cut, including the chairman of the Democratic Party in Philadelphia. In September, the Harris operation contributed almost $25 million to other party committees, in part to quiet those demands.
Some media allies of Ms. Harris were also paid. Areva Martin, who hosts a talk show, was paid $200,000 as a media consultant, and she went on a battleground-state tour in October.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/17/us/politics/harris-campaign-finances.html
Typical left-wing economic agenda items like “living wage,” “affordable housing,” “paid family leave,” or “union jobs” dropped out of Harris’s vocabulary in the weeks after Labor Day. Tracking the use of more neutral terms relating to the economy — like “wages,” “jobs,” and “workers” — we see a trend line that slopes upward into early September before declining over the following weeks. By October, Harris was spending less of her time campaigning with Shawn Fain and Bernie Sanders than she was with Republican Liz Cheney and billionaire Mark Cuban, unlikely candidates to push any kind of progressive economic message, let alone a populist one. Cuban was gleeful enough to declare that the “progressive principles . . . of the Democratic Party . . . are gone. It’s Kamala Harris’s party now.”
This pivot wasn’t merely rhetorical: donors, consultants, and business-connected campaign staff pushed Harris to “clarify” or de-emphasize previous statements indicating support for a slate of popular policies on price controls; capital gains, corporate, and wealth taxes; and a host of other issues. Harris’s vague suggestions that she would engage in price controls to bring down inflation were watered down into a policy that already exists in most states that prevents businesses from profiteering on natural disasters. Her gestures toward taxing the wealthy became a capital gains tax proposal of 28 percent, far lower than the Biden administration’s proposed 40 percent; and she never took a position on Biden’s proposal to tax unrealized capital gains. And as time went on, the candidate spoke less and less frequently about her watered-down price-gouging proposal or her commitment to taxing the rich.
https://jacobin.com/2024/11/harris-campaign-economic-populism-democracy/
While in Michigan, Clinton criticized Palestinian and Arab-Americans who oppose the Biden-Harris Administration’s support for Israel’s war on Gaza, which has killed at least that 43,000 Palestinians, most of them women and children, and rendered much of Gaza uninhabitable.
In a speech yesterday, Clinton argued that Israel was justified in not keeping “score” of civilian casualty counts in Gaza due to Hamas’ October 7th attack. He also claimed civilians have been killed because they were used as human shields despite the fact the Israeli government has engaged in what even President Biden admitted was “indiscriminate” bombing, destroying mosques, churches, schools, hospitals, and refugee camps.
He also justified Biden administration’s support for the Israeli government’s genocide in Gaza by arguing that Israelis had lived near Gaza since “before [Islam] existed,” citing King David and referring to the Holy Land as “Judea and Samaria,” a term used by far-right Israelis who oppose a Palestinian state. Clinton stated that President Biden was fulfilling his “duty” to Israel by providing unconditional military support.
“Arabic groups” didn’t decide the Democratic parties campaign message. “Arabic groups” didn’t decide where Democrats spent their campaign money. “Arabic groups” didn’t ask for Bill Clinton to lecture them about Judea and Samaria and how it belongs to Israel, nor did “Arabic groups” emphasise running an entire slate of Republicans at the DNC, whilst refusing just one Palestinian American speaker that would have effectively endorsed Harris on behalf of the uncommitted movement on stage. “Arabic groups” didn’t tell Democrats to downplay their economic messaging for fear of upsetting lobbyists and rich donors feelings.
Proof? I see this claimed constantly with absolutely zero evidence. Some people claim that Trump approved 2,000 lbs bombs that were stopped under Biden, but that isn’t true since Biden never truly stopped them. Biden claimed to have stopped sending 2,000 lbs bombs, but continued to do so anyways during his tenure. What has Trump done outside of enable the same genocide that was already taking place?
Trump is an idiot and a fascist. But I would like to see any evidence that he somehow sped up or made the genocide worse. Even the recent $7.4 billion that Trump approved doesnt compare. Its not even the biggest sale of weapons to Israel this year considering the sale approved under Biden before he left office. How much was the amount Biden sent? It was $8 billion.
I see posts like this every now and then, but I’m not convinced this is happening on any real scale. In fact, most pro-Trumpers I’ve encountered have been making excuses for every shady thing he’s done since taking office as “getting America back on track”
Maybe, MAYBE in his first term they could pull this “oh no we were fooled” crap but not on his second term.
We have a saying in Texas: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on…wait…how does it go again?
all the people who refused to vote for kamala must be so pleased with how little palestinian genocide is about to happen. aren’t they? well? aren’t they?
no?
gee it sure sounds like their whole little plan backfired in the worst possible way come to think of it, ACTUALLY.
Yep. As soon as I heard her stance on Israel, I got a sinking feeling. There was such hope and enthusiasm at first, but she just had to pander to AIPAC.
The nuanced stance that Israel, an ally, was attacked and had a right to defend itself but that they shouldn’t cause a humanitarian crisis in Gaza?
That she was committed to a two state solution?
That she consistently called for ceasefires all of last year?
Y’all got played if you think Harris was pandering to AIPAC.
To be honest, my prediction was “parking lot”, so the whole “riviera” concept was a surprising development.
The ethnic cleansing was obvious, tho.
Dawg, the democratic party failed to energize it’s base by running a center right campaign with a platform of strong boarders, a strong military, and tax cuts. Them failing to get enough votes is there fault for trying to beat voters with the cudgel of trump while offering nothing to most working families. I voted for Kamala, and even I recognize this. I am really tired of seeing a comment like this every time there’s a post about trump. The election is over. Rhetoric like this only divides the left further.
Imagine thinking democracy is only your duty if you feel energized by the candidate.
Imagine being a Democracy and deliberately running an unpopular campaign so the financiers keep the money spigot on.
I don’t think I have any obligation/duty to democracy, given how its going.
Rhetoric like this only divides the left further.
Liberals aren’t left, and the democratic party served its purpose to a T. These people who continue to defend it are too. Both of their purpose is to shift the overton window all the way in to fascism, which they are doing successfully, and have no reason to stop (until the fascist come for them, at which point they will wonder why no one is interested in or even around to help them).
Yeah so blaming other leftists who didn’t for liberals is really senseless and still divides the left
I see an awful lot of people post-justifying doing nothing as some form of radical resistance.
Well, sure, maybe it is resistance, and maybe they have a clear conscience… But it didn’t do a fucking thing, did it?
I see it this way. They want to stop the atrocities in Gaza by any means possible. I can’t blame them for that, but I can blame them for how they went about doing it.
Let’s boil it down to playing a simple game. You can play by the rules, and play smart, and win. Or, if you don’t like the game, you can play a different game and win that one.
By voting for someone other than Kamala (or not voting) they are inherently playing the game, and playing to lose.
If you want to play a different game, then you need to do some Luigi shit instead of sitting on your thumbs bitching about things.
So in the end, they played the game, and they played to lose, and now we’re all fucked because of it, and I don’t respect that decision at all.
their whole little plan backfired
Was there a plan in the first place? It would’ve looked like this:
- Don’t vote Kamala
- Trump wins election
- ???
- No profit at all, everything’s fucked
- Vote Cornel West because he’s an ok person who opposes genocide.
- It doesn’t matter at all because of where I live in this sham democracy.
- Continue to be berated by delusional genocidal libs for the rest of my life.
- Vote Kamala
- Trump does not win election
- There’s still hope for a better future
Did you ever try asking someone to explain the reasoning, or did you you just assume whatever strawman you came up with was real?
If I were running for office, it would be easy to say no to genocide. Why wouldn’t Harris do that?
Republicans would just spin the narrative by accusing her of being antisemetic (aka a Nazi).
So people should support genocide so that genocidal people don’t call them anti-semetic?
That’s a root of the problem. People were called anti-german for opposing the nazis.
I’m not voting for somebody who’s too scared or brainwashed to oppose genocide.
I don’t follow… Kamala would have just held the status quo, so just to have a change in direction the country decided to go to hell?
You know what makes me so angry though? Looking at the way the Dems govern, even now in the face of this firehosed of shit, this was going to happen eventually. I’ve been thinking a lot about “who’s worse, the Nazis, or people who opened the door for them?”
It does seem that this would have happened eventually unless the rot was repaired, which didn’t seem likely. However being accellerationist about it seems so foolish. Why wish for bad outcomes to happen sooner? There is no guaranteed good that will come later on to make it somehow a better choice than living with the lesser evil now.
genocide is about to happen.
lmao libs waking up after over a year… acting like they suddenly give a shit about an ongoing genocide.
This is why y’all keep losing. Literally offering nothing but vile condescension.
It didn’t backfire at all. If we can demonstrate that the Democrats can’t win if they support genocide, then maybe they won’t support genocide next time. And if they cannot be persuaded to listen to reason, then they need to be replaced by another party and the sooner we start on that the better.
Y’all think this was unexpected because you never bothered to understand our positions or arguments. You just strawman us and then believe your own strawman. Trump being worse on Gaza was already acknowledged and considered, there is no surprise here and no regret, we made the correct choice and will do it again if we have to.
Stop blaming the voters for kamala’s bad decisions.
she threw her campaign when her campaign chose to abandon the very vocal block of anti-genocide voters who had enough votes to swing the election.
if your campaign can only succeed if several millions of people to change their minds suddenly, you ran a losing campaign from the beginning.
It’s the voters who voted for Trump. It’s that simple.
Although I didn’t have ”Trump ending the Israel Palestine conflict by making Palestine American” on my bingo card, it was always super obvious that Trump is way more pro Israel than Kamala. If you thought otherwise you didn’t pay attention at all.
Yeah, but blaming then is obviously pointless. It makes sense to blame the ones that could have prevented this: the Democratic Party and the ones who didn’t vote democrat.
Trump had the same number of votes this time as he did in 2020. He didn’t win, the Democrats lost because they had nothing to offer people other than “we aren’t Trump!”. It was a losing strategy in 2016 when the economy was sort of functioning and it only worked when Trump was in power and the morgues were overflowing with dead bodies. Now that the economy is shit for anyone naking less than $200,000 a year, it was a loser again. All the Democrats than ran on “centrist” platforms lost while those offering actual changes like M4A, housing reform, and ending money in politics safely won reflection.
It doesn’t matter how good or bad her campaign was. All people in swing states who were able to vote but didn’t or voted third party have contributed to Trump’s victory.
If your election system requires you to vote tactically, you have no choice but to vote tactically.
If the election system requires tactical voting then it isn’t a democracy.
Actually, for that matter, I DO actually want to incorporate your point.
The problem is the proverbial horse died of thirst.
You’re right in that it’s not correct for me to simply leave it at “you can lead the horse to water but you can’t make it drink”, because the truth is SHE DIDN’T LEAD THE FUCKING HORSE TO WATER AT ALL IN THE FIRST PLACE!
She silently held up a sign that said “maybe water”
Trump held up a sign that said “no water for anyone except you” (which was patently a LIE, there was never any water at all with him) while also making beckoning noises and holding a sugar cube in his other hand.
The fact that the horse literally couldn’t even read in the first place doesn’t change the fact that she didn’t do her fucking job and that he used empty populist rhetoric to lure the horse to a place where there definitely was NEVER going to be any water whatsoever.
We tried to nudge the horse to where there might have been water. But it’s just a dumb fucking animal and wanted sugar cubes. Now it’s dead (and it didn’t even get the sugar cube it was being bribed with) and
…
yeah. We have better shit to do than keep beating this dead horse. It’s too late for it to learn anything.
So, departing from that metaphor, in a very real sense I’ve been making preparations to help people survive and perhaps someday even evacuate. Complaining about the circumstances is not the ONLY thing I’m doing, not by a long shot. But I do complain. Because I’m stressed and need to release the metaphorical pressure.
If you know of any mutual aid groups starting up to construct an underground railroad now that the horse is dead and we have to rely on ourselves, I’d sure like to know.