377 points

Does anyone else have the feeling that Ukraine is safer with no deal?

permalink
report
reply
217 points

Yeah, and the EU should immediately step up, and triplicate support for Ukraine.

permalink
report
parent
reply
121 points

We (Europe) already did most of the heavy lifting for Ukraine. The US mostly gave old stockpiles of weapons that they would’ve needed to destroy anyway. We are the ones actually paying cash to keep them afloat.

The problem is, in the post-WW2 order, our defense and our defense industry was made dependent on the USA by design. And even up until last November, Europe didn’t want to challenge this arrangement and just went full steam ahead with this arrangement, ordering US made weapons. I think Europe was in denial that Biden could lose or that NATO could ever end.

Only France, and to a limited extent, Sweden and Turkey, have independent defense industries.

In the future, we will have it again. And Ukraine will actually be a key player.

But in the short term, there is no magical button to press that can produce the arms.

Undoing decades of integration isn’t going to be easy.

permalink
report
parent
reply
22 points

You just made all of the points that I was thinking about.

permalink
report
parent
reply
9 points

Indeed, especially during the first Cold War, the US Military Industrial Complex was everywhere. Germany and Japan were forced to buy out dated shit from the Americans. The magical button, tell the US military to shutdown all their European military installations and leave. What would the US MIC do then? I highly doubt they want to lose business.

permalink
report
parent
reply
5 points

I mostly agree, but I think the list needs Germany’s excellent Leopard (2) tanks, the modern APC variants and all their industry.

Europe also has a lot of good marine yards that can make Navy vessels and submarines.

And it can drum up drone production in a rapid tempo where needed.

What’s more, European Steel and metallurgy are out of the door of higher grade than the US, Russia and Chinese productions. This is a boon to produce heavy armor quickly.

So when push comes to shove Europe can no doubt ramp up a unified military industry rapidly, no need for it to take a decade, and keep finances in house. Another factor that works against the Trump economy if he thoughtlessly pulls the plug on NATO

permalink
report
parent
reply
2 points

Putin is going to make a hard move into the baltics during Trump’s first 2 years, including NATO countries. And Europe won’t be able to do shit about it. They need defenses now and European leadership needs to fast track it.

permalink
report
parent
reply
4 points

Triple*

permalink
report
parent
reply
160 points

Any deal with Trump is no deal at all. He’s the kind of guy that, if you give an inch, starts waving his hands around about how you stole 16 inches from him, and how you must be thrown in a hole somewhere.

Granting him anything is telling him that you are weak and ripe to be exploited.

permalink
report
parent
reply
20 points

Just like with any dictator deals are worthless. Putin broke the ceasefire and Trump is breaking trade deals.

permalink
report
parent
reply
45 points

Yes. USA already knows what its going to do. A hypothetical trade agreement isn’t going to change the decision, so Ukraine should make exactly zero concessions in pursuit of influencing a decision which has already been made.

permalink
report
parent
reply
22 points

Exactly, Trump already decided he was going to surrender. Zelensky knew he wasn’t going to get anything, but it was worth a shot I guess

permalink
report
parent
reply
23 points
*

This guy does (he was there too, sitting next to vance, btw)

permalink
report
parent
reply
18 points
*

A man who, by the way, was fully supported by every single democratic senator.

permalink
report
parent
reply
12 points

He was supposed to be the “adult” in the room. They all fear Trump… For some reason, I don’t get it.

permalink
report
parent
reply
4 points

I’m certain Dr Birx can recommend him a therapist who specializes in sold souls…

permalink
report
parent
reply
12 points

I’d suspect they’re safer with a deal… but they absolutely shouldn’t honor that deal.

permalink
report
parent
reply
33 points

They’re safer with a deal with guarantees, but Trump doesn’t want to give any, only take the profit. Otherwise it’s a choice between soldiers dying and soldiers dying with profit sharing.

permalink
report
parent
reply
11 points

They’re safer if they develop nuclear weapons on their own.

permalink
report
parent
reply
8 points

Libya and Ukraine convey the same warning to non NATO states. Have nukes or perish.

permalink
report
parent
reply
2 points

All to play for . Join EU. Agree no NATO Putin fucks off.

America frozen.

Not sure how the US would react. Probably war.

permalink
report
parent
reply
2 points

They can sign a 50 year deal and stop payment 10 years from now, hopefully thing change for better then.

permalink
report
parent
reply
224 points

I watched some of the transmission and all I can say is my respect to Zelensky grew tenfold with that exchange alone.

Having to interact with these two clowns and still keeping his cool (as much as he was able to) requires A LOT of patience and will. It was horrifyingly stupid in a train wreck kind of way.

permalink
report
reply
89 points

Zelensky deserves every award there is for being able to keep his cool like that. I certainly wouldn’t have been able to.

permalink
report
parent
reply
65 points

Dude… I am saying this from the most unobjective place I can possibly manage. That was was of the most difficult and annoying things I’ve watched in a very long time. It honestly felt like watching a rational adult deal with his children complaining they can’t have a sleepover or something.

I am shocked that A) the White House wanted that embarrassment broadcast and B) zelensky actually remained remarkably calm.

Man what annoying people to talk with lol I’m trying so hard to see this from a different perspective but I can’t even fathom how that could be seen as anything other than rude and embarrassing.

“You haven’t even thanked us once” lmao

permalink
report
parent
reply
34 points
*

I am shocked that A) the White House wanted that embarrassment broadcast

Trump thinks strength is measured by how many people you confront and bully and threaten. He is not smart enough to realize this isn’t how it looks to people outside his bubble of sycophants and MAGA dummies. Elon Musk clearly thinks the same way, and both Musk and Trump crave the respect they will never earn, so they double down on their idiot edgelord/bully methods. The White House media office will be headed by Trump sycophants, who will see this exchange through MAGA eyes. They see a strong man where everyone else sees a pathetic manchild.

permalink
report
parent
reply
18 points

Same here. I actively avoid watching Trump or his administration talk so seeing both him and Vance during this meeting was… exhausting to say the least. I can only imagine what was going through Zelensky’s head throughout the whole thing. His face sure said a lot.

permalink
report
parent
reply
7 points

Man, don’t take a look at the conversations sub. They are all high fiving each other over this. For them it was a rush of masculinity and power live on TV. You’ve got folks saying that Vance never looked so good and how they want to name their first born over him.

permalink
report
parent
reply
3 points
*

Wait, really? Imo, JD had that “guy who’s been trying to turn a friend into a fuck for three years now” energy for Trump. I’m really surprised anybody saw that as masculine and powerful.

permalink
report
parent
reply
4 points
*

Did i dreamed or did at some point he mentioned Hunter Biden’s d!*k? You wouldn’t believe a movie with such a plot.

permalink
report
parent
reply
2 points

It honestly felt like watching a rational adult deal with his children complaining they can’t have a sleepover or something.

Except the children’s behavior will also get a lot of people killed and possibly a whole nation enslaved.

permalink
report
parent
reply
26 points

Indeed. He’s in an awful situation and has no good options. With only Europe (both politically and militarily) it will be real hard for them. OTOH with a blackmailed ‘deal’ with orange they loose a big piece of resources without any guarantees not to loose the rest to Russia or to the orange in a deal extension. To get out of this situation without a major loss would be a miracle, but hey, I really hope they make it.

permalink
report
parent
reply
16 points

If we’re lucky this will be (another) kick for the European leaders to get serious about a possibility of US bailing out completely. Maybe. Hopefully. Please?

permalink
report
parent
reply
216 points

fuck you america for voting for this fascist scumbag. nobody should trust you again.

permalink
report
reply
38 points

Most of us want the shithead gone just as bad as you do, but too many dumbshits decided they’d rather not stop him because the alternative wasn’t perfect. I hate it here.

permalink
report
parent
reply
35 points

Most? He already was president and over 50% voted that guy into office again? How are most people against him?

permalink
report
parent
reply
16 points

He didn’t get 50% of the vote.

He won be cause either 6 million people didn’t vote or, to quote Trump, “[Elon] knows those computers better than anybody. All those computers. Those vote-counting computers. And we ended up winning Pennsylvania like in a landslide.”

permalink
report
parent
reply
13 points

A surprisingly large number of people don’t vote. I refuse to believe that anything approaching half of voting-age Americans support this. Unfortunately, here we are.

permalink
report
parent
reply
5 points

50% of the people that voted in the last election voted for him. Some people didn’t vote, so about 33% of those that could vote voted for him. Since the election, his approval ratings dropped about 15-20%, so about 25% of those able to vote still support him.

permalink
report
parent
reply
3 points

"They didn’t know"TM

permalink
report
parent
reply
9 points

No, most of you either directly voted for him or didn’t care if he won.

permalink
report
parent
reply
3 points

most of you decided voting was too much of hassle

permalink
report
parent
reply
2 points
*
Deleted by creator
permalink
report
parent
reply
1 point

Definitely not most.

permalink
report
parent
reply
33 points

I’m an American and I’m upvoting this. After 2016, I thought that there were some misguided people who didn’t realize what they were doing, but that the first Trump term would push the pendulum hard the other direction. I felt a little validated when Biden won in 2020, but it wasn’t as one sided as I’d hoped. But Trump winning decisively in 2024 tells me that everyone knew and did it anyway. People are getting what they want: rampant racism, sexism, and global bullying.

So yes, we suck, and no one should trust us as a country, regardless of the fact that there are many of us who knew how catastrophic another Trump term would be.

permalink
report
parent
reply
15 points

I don’t think Trump won quite as decisively as it first seemed.

But shit, it’s still like… a third of our country that looked at Trump and went, “yeah sure”.

How the fuck do we fix this? I straight up have no clue. And that means it very likely will devolve into violence. And that is legitimately terrifying.

permalink
report
parent
reply
21 points

How the fuck do we fix this?

The primary issue is twofold:

  1. Heavily biased information and restrictive media diets
  2. Democrat Inaction

If you try viewing even a tiny amount of right leaning content on a fresh social media account on any platform, you’ll see the type of content that gets perpetuated. People simply become indoctrinated by content recommendations that are practically incapable of showing the other side, not to mention that most mainstream media is entirely corporately captured.

The fact that the Democrats were slow to release official policy for Harris’s campaign, indeterminate on Gaza, and had (or really, still have) a very “this is fine, you’re just overreacting, but sure we’ll fix a few things” attitude towards political messaging, only helped Republicans, because it led a lot of people to just vote for the party that promised the most, and that was the Republicans. All the wars would be over, things would be cheaper, all the “bad” people wouldn’t be here anymore, etc.

To a normal person with very little media literacy, those promises sound downright amazing.

I personally think we fix this by at least starting with messaging, since that’s what actually leads most people to make a decision on who to vote for. There were literally people deciding on election night who they wanted to vote for, so messaging is highly important.

The left needs to speak to the immediately visible, material needs of the working people directly. While it’s important to fight against the right on culture war issues to prevent the ceding of ground on things like civil rights and discrimination, I think a lot of left leaning messaging focuses too heavily on that, and as a result, it can seem to right-inclined people that the left has no economic policy. That needs to change.

See: Bernie Sanders, and how he very consistently addresses specific economic issues people face, and has broader support on the right compared to any democratic congressperson. Hell, even JD Vance said Bernie was one of the people he least disliked on the left, and Bernie’s further left than the Democrats. Populist, economic disparity focused, anti-billionaire, pro-worker sentiment is how you change ordinary people’s minds in the current media economy.

As an individual, the most you’ll likely be able to do in this respect is going to be volunteering for phone banking efforts, donating money to left leaning charities focused on reducing economic inequality, and generally bringing these kinds of talking points up in general political discussion with others.

There’s something else that’s commonly overlooked though, and that’s local policy. Think of a city’s “town hall” type meetings that accept public comment. How many people in that city are actually regularly attending a town hall meeting? Think of how few people it really is during a particularly contentious proposal. Now imagine what it’s like when it comes to something like “housing and urban development: reducing the rate of homelessness - meeting no. 57” Almost nobody. Get yourself and a few friends down to your local relevant policy meetings, make even a little noise, and the amount of change you can make as a result can be drastic compared to the actual % of the city’s population you make up.

Pushing for things like ranked-choice voting in local elections can also be very viable, since it’s proven that tends to push voters further left, on average, and it also adds some extra competition that can spur a party like the Democrats into actual meaningful action.

permalink
report
parent
reply
17 points

As an American. Agreed

permalink
report
parent
reply
13 points

Let’s remember that there good people there too. Let’s remember that these scumbags, whichever country they run, rely on our sweat, tears and blood to move forward with their decisions. While not all of us are good, obviously, I want to believe that many Americans were tricked by media to think Trump was a valid choice. What we need to understand it’s that this is a us people versus them rulers. If only we would understand this together and stop fighting each other…

permalink
report
parent
reply
12 points
*

rely on our sweat, tears and blood to move forward with their decisions

Agreed, so stop giving it to them. When I see Americans bring the country to a screeching halt through protest, disobedience, and strikes I will believe in the good people there.

“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”

permalink
report
parent
reply
9 points

The fact that a nation does fascist shit is never excused by the fact that there might be people who weren’t all bad. Or were even good.

Sincerely, A German.

permalink
report
parent
reply
7 points

I mean, that counts for Russia as well, but until recently you couldn’t say anything like this without getting attacked

permalink
report
parent
reply
3 points

I’m sure the media played a part.

But fuck. He was so obvious with his racism, with his desire to be a dictator, fuckin everything.

Fuck.

permalink
report
parent
reply
8 points

They basically handed one of the strongest countries in the world to a very typical college bully and his lackies.

permalink
report
parent
reply
5 points

Almost nobody using Lemmy voted for him.

permalink
report
parent
reply
-1 points
*

Try telling the blue MAGA BidenBro conservatives.

permalink
report
parent
reply
2 points

Those people sound like Harris voters, but you sure managed to fit in all your buzzwords

permalink
report
parent
reply
4 points

Yeah.

Yeah…

permalink
report
parent
reply
2 points

its better to move on and forget about them, because they made it very clear over the last 10 years these types of people absolutley do not give a fuck about anyone elses opinion, and would much rather kill anyone who gets in their way.

permalink
report
parent
reply
160 points

Did Trump and Vance think this embarrassing display made them look the better of the leaders?

Because it really didn’t.

permalink
report
reply
97 points
*

Yea, looks like they used their leverage over Zelensky to lure him into a trap that turned out to be a verbal-WWE media stunt…

…turns out Zelensky is more articulate and mature than both of them combined…

permalink
report
parent
reply
59 points

I suppose it might go down well with some of his base who love the “macho” shit, but the rest of the world are looking on with disgust.

In some ways, this has probably worked out well for Ukraine, as it might focus minds in Europe. Though I do wish Zelenskyy had pointed out the $350bn in aid lie that Trump keeps spouting.

permalink
report
parent
reply
36 points

Though I do wish Zelenskyy had pointed out the $350bn in aid lie that Trump keeps spouting.

He would need to have been able to get a word in edgeways to do that. What should happen is that media reporting on it should point out that it’s a lie but most media organizations seem too busy gargling Trump’s balls these days for that.

permalink
report
parent
reply
27 points

And he a comedian, working in his second language .

permalink
report
parent
reply
17 points

Zelensky knows who he is dealing with: Putin.

permalink
report
parent
reply
12 points

permalink
report
parent
reply
9 points

They only act this way because of their followers and because they are in the US. They wouldn’t pull this shit in any other country.

permalink
report
parent
reply
6 points

I’m afraid MAGA does

permalink
report
parent
reply
4 points

It (once again) showed their loyalty to Putin. In their mind, this was a massive success.

permalink
report
parent
reply
2 points

Unfortunately to their cult it did. Such a strong and powerful man. They are literally coming down from an orgasmic high from what they witnessed.

permalink
report
parent
reply
129 points

Zelensky is the strongest man in the world to be able to hold himself back from attacking these ass holes.

permalink
report
reply
18 points

I mean, it would have certainly resulted in him being shot on the spot. The Secret Service would shoot anyone .

permalink
report
parent
reply
6 points

I wonder how long until the US is nuked? Or at least actually attacked, militarily.

permalink
report
parent
reply
4 points
*

US didn’t spent most of it’s money on army for nothing. Doesn’t matter if the army is as powerful as it says it is, the image is strong enough, so nobody will dare.
The only way it will crumble down is if they do “putin gambit”, really attack someone, fail spectacularly at it, expose inability to do shit, and get 50 square kilometres of baren wasteland for it.

permalink
report
parent
reply
3 points

If you’re imagining some kind of first strike situation I think you’re barking up the ring tree. However, the US is extremely vulnerable economically.

permalink
report
parent
reply
9 points
*

I think he should call Trump’s bluff and send in a few dozen battle hardened Ukrainian troops with a few dozen drones and show Trump’s entire nursing home and support staff how things work nowadays. We need to put together an anonymous block chain fund with the purpose of putting multi million bounties on the treason party, funded anonymously by small donors and build a reliable mechanism for people to anonymously, but truthfully claim the bounties. What our political contributions fail to do, crowd funding can do. All of the technology exists to make this happen, and it’s one of the main appeals of crypto currencies. Large scale anonymous transactions. If I find out there’s a billionaire Trump donating traitor or heritage foundation member near me, and I can get a basic Intel file and there’s a 500K bounty on them, then shit. They better hug their money goodnight one last time. Just send an email from a burner/anon account to a recipient with the time of death rough location and wallet address before any news is released. If all the details add up then release the funds to the wallet.

Make it worth while and let rule#3 take effect:

“Number three, never trust nobody Your moms’ll set that ass up, properly gassed up Hoodied and masked up, shit, for that fast buck She be laying in the bushes to light that ass up”

permalink
report
parent
reply
1 point

I actually love this idea of anonymous crowdfunding by the masses. But how could we make this happen? I guess it would have to be initiated from the Ukrainian government.

permalink
report
parent
reply
1 point
*

I mean, the framework is already in place with crypto. The silk road ran for years and facilitated enormous amounts of illegal activity, and in the end who got in trouble? Like one fucking guy.

It’s honestly no different than a bookie. You facilitate the transactions and keep a portion of the cut for each transaction. The key is keeping the payor, payee, and broker anonymous.

And no Ukraine wouldn’t be involved in this, if anything the Swiss might be on board, or Panama

permalink
report
parent
reply

World News

!world@lemmy.world

Create post

A community for discussing events around the World

Rules:

  • Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:

    • Post news articles only
    • Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
    • Title must match the article headline
    • Not United States Internal News
    • Recent (Past 30 Days)
    • Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
  • Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think “Is this fair use?”, it probably isn’t. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.

  • Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.

  • Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.

  • Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19

  • Rule 5: Keep it civil. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.

Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to “Mom! He’s bugging me!” and “I’m not touching you!” Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.

  • Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.

  • Rule 7: We didn’t USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you’re posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.


Lemmy World Partners

News !news@lemmy.world

Politics !politics@lemmy.world

World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world


Recommendations

For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/

Community stats

  • 17K

    Monthly active users

  • 20K

    Posts

  • 330K

    Comments