I’m worried “paycheck to paycheck” is up to the interpretation of the person filing it the survey and how the questions are phrased. Depending on how the questions are worded, they’d possibly include me. My wife and I max our IRAs, 401ks, and HSAs each year. Anything that can be put on the credit card, is (then paid off before any interest can accrue). Like sure if you look at our monthly expenses vs income hitting the bank, we are “paycheck to paycheck”. But we could both lose a significant portion of our income and be just fine (provided we scale back retirement savings).
Unless they address that in these articles or surveys, it just sounds like they’re trying to get the poor and middle class to just agree to this shared misery while the rich keep fucking the world over.
Speaking anecdotally, I’ve always heard “living paycheck-to-paycheck” to mean having insufficient savings to cover a missed paycheck
I.e. if you don’t get an expected paycheck then you cannot pay your monthly debts/utilities/rent and still have enough money to feed.yourself and your dependents
Which is why I’m worried it’s not adequately defined. I’m definitely not paycheck to paycheck. But they could word the questions in such a way that I’d be included.
Oh, absolutely. If you click through to the Quicken press release they have a small section defining their methodology but don’t list the specific questions
I wish more people appreciated the lengths that Pew et al. go through to both minimize and recognize sources of bias, confusion, etc
(provided we scale back retirement savings).
But it would affect you, just longer-term than shorter-term. You don’t know what things will be like when you’re old, which is why most people who can do put the max amount in their IRAs, 401Ks, and HSAs. That doesn’t mean they’re bad people or misspending their money or not living paycheck-to-paycheck.
If you suffer in your old age because you had to cut back on retirement, that’s a huge impact on your life. It’s way easier to live paycheck-to-paycheck when you still can work than it is when you literally cannot and are relying on Society Security or retirement investments. I think that matters.
I’m poor as fuck, but I don’t feel like I need to judge people who barely make more money than me in the context of fucking billionaires.
Also, do you have kids, because that’s a huge impact on the bottom-line of people who make a decent salary.
Also, do you have kids, because that’s a huge impact on the bottom-line of people who make a decent salary.
Only furry ones with four paws. And the cost of raising kids is a not insignificant factor in that decision.
This is like all those surveys saying that 70% of Americans have less than $5000 in a “savings account.”
No shit, yields on savings accounts have been pointless for about two decades. Everyone with spare money puts liquid savings into index funds in margin accounts and runs on credit cards.
If you’re making 150k and are living paycheck to paycheck you either live in a crazy expensive area or are a total fucking idiot when it comes to managing your money.
Rent in NYC where I live is insane. My partner and I recently toured a place where they broke up the basement of a building into 4 apartments, none of which had a real bedroom, and were asking for $3k each
This is a trend everywhere, I just recently moved to different apartment and I’d say 8/10 apartments I saw on Zillow and the other sites were these “open concept” or whatever 1 bedrooms and hallway kitchens. It’s depressing
Move to Ohio and you can buy a house for significantly less than your current rent.
Supply and demand.
You can always move somewhere else and have hope of one day owning property. Or you can rent forever and have nothing to pass on to your kids.
The choice is yours. I wouldn’t wait around for others to solve your problems.
Ya, people should be forced to move away from their family and friends and home by insane cost of living and instead of sympathy we should just expect them to single handedly solve an entire fucked up economic system.
🤡
Try making $150k in a “reasonably priced area.” It can be done, but is not the norm. The problem is that to make a good salary, you have to be in a place that pays those wages. Obviously, this attracts more people, so real estate is more expensive.
The trick is to make $150k in some kind of sweet spot where housing does not compensate. But it’s always a moving target and is extremely difficult. Then in you lose your job? Start all over again.
I started working remotely and then left America. Now I live in a very low cost of living city and haven’t owed more than 1-2% taxes in years… It blows my mind that more people don’t do this.
Where did you go? And how do you not pay fed taxes working for an American company? Or is it a foreign company?
You just explained how work from home jobs will transform how people buy housing and where they buy it.
Yeah, my job went remote in 2020 and this year I moved out of the city and just bought my first house in my home state where the cost of living is almost 1/2 of my former city. I could’ve would’ve never bought a place where I was before. I’m sure someone would have loaned me the money but that felt like a death sentence for my small amount of disposable income.
I make $150k and learned to manage a very strict budget living in the city. Now I have some disposable income and my own house with a yard.
Because in your world, mobile home trailer parks are free or even exist in urban areas. Come on. A studio apartment around here starts at $1600/mo. The average home sale price in this area in 2022 was $580k. At 10% down, 30 year fixed, at 6.5% interest, after taxes and fees, that’s a mortgage payment of about $4000/mo. Plus about $300-600/mo if you have an HOA/COA. Plus repairs as needed.
Your net take home pay at $150k, after taxes only, is about $9k, making your mortgage 45% of your income. That doesn’t include health insurance, retirement, or any other paycheck deductions.
It doesn’t include transportation: payments, gas, repairs, tolls, or insurance.
That doesn’t include utilities: gas, electric, water, trash, phone, or internet.
That doesn’t include food, supplies, clothing, or personal care.
And it sure as shit doesn’t include medical issues. God help you if you’re a diabetic.
And kids? What are you, fucking Rockefeller? Daycare, schooling (yes, even public schools cost money because of all the extras they ask you to provide like supplies, lunch, etc), and all their needs. At at least 16 years before they might be able to pay rent, that’s a long time for a free tenant sharing your resources.
Plus all of life’s extra costs.
And looking at Zillow, I can’t find any properties within 10 miles of me going for less than $600k. They got townhomes for 1.2 million just down the block. $580k for a house is gonna be hard to find, and probably not in the best condition. Doable, possibly, but not easy.
My salary is $160k in the most expensive region in the country. My total yearly expenses don’t exceed $50k, $20k of which is rent. The rest maxes out my 401k and goes towards a house down payment fund. I have a $30k emergency fund in case I lose my job which gives me 9 months of runway.
I’m not a nomad by any means. I have very nice things and I spend a grand a month on wants (eating out, my hobbies, whatever else I impulse order from Amazon), but I’m extremely aware of all my purchases and budget out every transaction at the end of every week. Hell, I just spent $2k on Christmas to get my family very nice gifts, but I’ve been spending less and sacrificing wants the past few months to offset that to prevent lifestyle creep.
This is a financial literacy problem, not a $150k is not a lot of money problem.
ETA: I split rent 50/50 with my partner in the California Bay area for a decent-sized 2b2.5b townhouse. My friends who do have 5 housemates, as so many of you seem to think I do, pay $1050 a month in rent, or $12.6k a year.
You live in the most expensive region of the country but you only pay $20k in rent? Is your idea of “most expensive” Akron or something?
Hi, this is pretty much me, and I concur. If you can’t live on $150k then you are definitely making some questionable decisions. That’s around $8k/m take home. Even if you are spending $4k on rent/mortgage, you should have plenty left over to live on.
I own a home just outside of a city and my mortgage is 1060/mo. 3BR, 3 bath, finished basement, on a half acre.
Good for you. I bet you have to drive everywhere and you don’t even realize that the cost of the infrastructure to make your life convient is bankrupting your closest city.
Good thing there are plenty of places to live outside of major cities.
The only people who this isn’t a solution for are those who feel they’re entitled to live in places they can’t afford 🤷
A lot of people like not commuting several hours a day, or having access to actual culture, or not being constantly robbed by meth heads, or not being murdered because of their Identity, or about a million other things that are difficult to impossible outside of cities…
But fuck all the queer and trans people who escaped to the safety of cities. If they can’t afford t, they shouldn’t be there, right? /s
Hmmm you’re not going to be making 150k a year in a shit fly over state.
I moved from the Bay Area to the East side of Washington near Seattle, folks here don’t make as much as I do for sure, at least not on average. We both have good salaries so we can afford a lot of things. We essentially got to keep most of our bay area salaries.
But even then if we need a big repair we still have to sit down and plan out the money.
I can’t even imagine what it’s like for folks around here.
I live in Nebraska, and all comp included make around 155k per year salary + bonus. You can make that kind of money even here in the “shit”
In California, a new mortgage payment is 8-15k/month. Rent on an apartment is 3-4k/month. $150k salary isn’t enough for the mortgage and will struggle to cover that cost of rent.
In California, a new mortgage payment is 8-15k/month. Rent on an apartment is 3-4k/month
Buddy of mine lives in LA and was just posting angry complaints about his rent going up to 1800/mo, so no.
I’ve got three friends in the LA area and one in the Bay and none of them pay anything close to 3k/mo rent or 8k(!!!) on their mortgages.
Those numbers are insane.
Household income not personal income? And gross not net, correct? After healthcare, taxes and retirement deductions my net is 50% of gross so let’s say that calculates to 6,250 a month. It is a lot of money! But for a household of 4, 2 paid off cars 3 drivers and one college student with no tuition costs, and one high schooler in a school that gives everyone lunch(so it could be much worse) here the average community monthly costs are:
2.5k mortgage with the tax & insurance in there, make that 3k if you are renting.
800/ month car insurance
600/month electric, water, internet
200/month family cell phone service
50/month streaming and donations to community radio
600/month average repair & maintenance on home and cars
Leaving 1700 for food for 4, gas, vet bills, credit card payments (because if someone is making bank now, they got there by making less for years). It’s certainly reasonable but here it’s about the least you can make household - wise and be solid, so if you are making 50k, you need three people working not two. And I can see how a family could get behind. That 2.5k plus $600 housing cost can be much more if you bought a house in the last year or so, and car loan or tuition could also blow this up, as could a medical emergency.
800/ month car insurance
The fuck? Why is your car insurance so expensive?
600/month electric, water, internet
The fuck? Why are you water and electric bills so high? I live alone, but my water bill is always <$40 and my electric bill is $70-$150 depending on if I’m running the A/C or heater.
Internet for me is only $25/month because I use my phone for Internet and have unlimited data with Visible.
200/month family cell phone service
Switch to Visible, like I said. $25/month per line and you all have unlimited data so you can cut your cable Internet.
50/month streaming and donations to community radio
Complete waste of money. You don’t get to do these and then complain you don’t have enough.
600/month average repair & maintenance on home and cars
Lol, what? Are you constantly hitting your walls with hammers? Do you do offroading in a sedan? No way you’re spending $600 per month on home/car repairs (on average) unless you’re driving a Benz or BMW.
That said, thank you for listing out your expenses. It’s a way more fruitful discussion when we talk actual numbers instead of vague “I don’t have enoughs.”
Nope. 2 cars and 3 drivers here with one of them 18 years old. Highest cost car insurance market in the nation. But without that third driver our household income wouldn’t hit the $150k.
Electric, Water, Internet. That’s mostly electricity. Electric bill is higher since I’m working from home, and everything in the house is electric (no gas bill) we don’t eat out much, cook a lot. Very high in the summer. Big windows, high ceilings, old house. Water includes garbage and is usually $100 or so. Internet about $75 FIOS so I can work from home mostly (2 cars not 3 that way).
The $200 is a legacy t mobile plan covering 8 people so if needed I could get the grown kids to cover half of it, that one is high but not per line, we just pay it because if we cut them off it would still cost us $200 for 4 lines.
House is older and cars are too. Tenting for termites has to happen every 10 years and costs 10k, we’ve had to fix plumbing, electric, replace an old porch, need blinds to help with the electrical cost, and the cars won’t last forever - I honestly think the $600 may be underestimating the cost of maintenance, not overestimating.
And of course every month something happens. Vet bills, or some medical cost, or car repair eats the 600 AND the plumbing springs a leak, or I have to work weekends and we buy restaurant food - no month is just bills.
It’s easy to go cheap for awhile, I have done that plenty. We have dry beans, rice, a garden. But things fall apart. I am putting here the cost of maintenance because if we don’t accrue this $600ish, it will end up costing even more. It’s a real cost.
Oh, and I know this isn’t poor, lol. In my 20s lived with 3 families in one house and dumpster dived to make ends meet. Then raised 4 kids with a guy who, halfway through, decided he couldn’t work. 6 people living on what I could make, we are paying that deficit now too. Even so, this is is an awesome life, I am not complaining at all. Just saying that the bills do take most of the netpay if the real cost of housing and transportation is included.
I mean by all standards they should be completely fine.
I make less than $30k/year and make it work without credit. I honestly want to see their bills and what their living situation looks like because if you can’t manage $150k/year comfortably you’re definitely doing something wrong.
Other places may have higher cost of living. Hard to tell. But it does sound like a lot of money.
I don’t disagree, but $150k is just not that much money any more for a household. My wife and I make probably around $110 or so. I got lucky and bought a house 6-8 years ago (I’d never be able to afford interest rates or what that house appraises at now) we have a couple of <$20k used cars with good rates, and a household of 6-8 depending on which of my kid’s friends basically live with us this week.
if I were buying my house today, we’d need to make much closer to the 150 just to maintain our current middle class lifestyle, and trust me, it’s not like we’re eating steak every night (or probably even every month.) I mean, sure, there are things we can do to make that money go further, and we will likely have to do as my kids get older/more expensive.
You get used to the money and spend more until you are broke. Maybe it’s peer pressure, irresponsibility or a lack of financial education.
I’m a software developer, a couple years outta college. My girlfriend and I are living together, and make about $120k/yr combined. We have no problem, I save a lot of my income and still have a bunch left over for hobbies. She has maybe a couple grand in student debt left and I’ve never been in debt in my life. I’d be willing to bet that a large portion of the issue is car payments and payments on a house that’s fancier than they need.
It’s also wild that roughly the same percentage (36%) of people making $50k-$150k are also living paycheck to paycheck. Live within you means. It isn’t hard.
Now live in San Francisco, have 2 kids and a house.
Probably not even possible on 120k
Edit: im not in San Francisco, but I don’t think you could own where i am with a dual income of 120k and have a place that would work for 2 kids. At least moving here today. 5-10 years ago it’d work no problem. Cheapest 3 bedroom condo is 525k with $620 monthly fees, but almost all of them are 700k+ (in CAD)
Yes and no.
Yes the economic rigging is the billionaire class. But at 150k assuming. Single and not joint income, this is interesting. At that point you are 78th percentile of income. How is the top 25 percentile not able to cover expenses? I think that is a question worth asking.
Also read the article. It talks about paycheck to paycheck as not being able to cover full credit card expenses monthly.
I think a more apt question is: what is it about our economic system that creates a situation where the people in the top 25 percentile of earners are incapable of supporting themselves financially?
That said, with a few lifestyle changes, I believe someone making $150k per year could make it work in most, if not all, major US cities. It might be a small one bedroom apartment, and you might need to walk or take a subway to work, but it can probably be done.
I think a lot of people who grew up in the 90s and early 00s working class kind of saw $100k/year something to aspire to (at least where I grew up). Like, if you could make that much, then that would mean you’d be more than set. These days, not so much. It’s hard (for me at least) to remember sometimes that it’s really not that much money anymore.
I think a lot of people who grew up in the 90s and early 00s working class kind of saw $100k/year something to aspire to
Oh absolutely. Looking at median home prices by state and even then choosing a lowball estimate for a mortgage ($275k, 0 down) at today’s rates (7-8%) you’re looking at nearly a $3k/mo house payment. So, like 30-40% of your income. This doesn’t include taxes/insurance, so that $3k is probably $3500 being again extremely generous, so that’s just about half of your income. And that’s for a house with no heat, water, electric…
I have a family of 6-8, and make just over this amount between our incomes, and it’s tricky. Absolutely wouldn’t be possible for us if we hadn’t bought our home 6-8 years ago.
I mean you can make any income be paycheck to paycheck by spending too much.
Yep, my mother used to manage pays for engineers making up to 300k and for some of them it was a disaster if a mistake lead to 200$ being missing from their cheque and they would be in her office first thing in the morning in full panic mode…
I mean, if my cheque was off by a couple of hundred dollars, I’d want to follow up on the discrepancy (not in panic mode though). My wife’s a high earner and some pay was delayed a month due to staff turnover.
Leadership was like “it shows financial stability to be able to wait for pay,” but people have budgets and plans for that money. Otherwise it’s an interest free loan to the organization - the money should be paid out timely.
But I do agree, overall, that folks should be able to manage their budget, especially as a high earner.
Especially considering that at the time they could have just bought a house minutes from their office on a year’s salary instead of being over their head in debt because they preferred living in the next city in a house worth a couple millions…
Don’t let this sensational headline fool you. These are not the 1% not even close.
