The Israeli government is murdering children and committing war crimes, and they’re upset about what The Onion has to say about it.
They’re also full on slaughtering the press too.
So a rundown of what they’re doing
- Killing 2 civilians for every 1 Hamas
- Killing children (50% of Gaza is under 18)
- Killing journalists
They’re 100% correct Hamas needs to be wiped out because Hamas wants Jews to not exist, but goddamn the ends to not justify the means.
They’ve lost the fucking plot.
Mark my words anti-Semitism is going to continue it’s crescendo and it’s 100% because of the IDF and that asshat running Israel.
Hamas charter excerpt.
16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
Does that mean Israel needs to be wiped out because they don’t want Palestinians to exist?
What did it for me to know they went waaaaaay too far was the:
-killing three of their hostages while they were holding a white flag
-a sniper killing two women inside a church affiliated with Rome
The ironic thing is, conflating any and all criticism of the state of Israel with anti-semitism could be argued as anti-semitic itself, because to suggest that jewish people in general and the Israeli state/military are one in the same such that criticism of the later is also hateful towards the former, is also to suggest that jewish people as a whole are responsible for the actions of Israel.
As cultural groups as a whole are inherently unable to be guilty of crimes (since even if a large number of people belonging to one commit some crime, such a group will also contain members that cannot be guilty of it, like young children), but states and similar entities, being organized and capable of decision-making, can be, then any attempt to link the moral culpability of a state and that of a cultural group is inherently to apply unfair accusations to that group, and thus hateful to it.
Should one be allowed to have a national state if that national state is an ethnostate, practices apartheid, and commits genocide? I’m seriously asking because that is a standard I would hold any country to. And I don’t see how it means that “Jewish people can’t have a homeland”, just that it’s unacceptable to build a homeland on the mass graves of the natives.
and it must restrain itself impeccably when fighting against terrorists with human shields.
Ridiculous. How does that single out Israel? No other nation shoots through 30 members of a single family to kill a “terrorist”. How are Israel held to a different standard?
Sounds to me like a genocidal excuse fantasy.
Thank you for asking this. I’m against ethnostates regardless of the ethnicity and am genuinely curious to hear OP’s response
No other nation shoots through 30 members of a single family to kill a “terrorist”.
I agree with your argument in general, but hasn’t the US shot drone missiles (accidentally, for certain values of that word) at plenty of civilians as part of its was on terror?
Personally I’d put it this way: Every ethnicity is entitled to a place to rightfully call home, a place to feel secure and welcome in. Our Frisian minority here never tried for independence, it just didn’t come up. It’s their rightful home, living there since time immemorial just like the majority, even as a mere district in a state in a federal state in a continental union. Quite literally zero ethnic tensions over the millennia: Sibling tribes, one happens to be numerically dominant. This place to feel secure and welcome in thing though is pretty much incompatible with what Israel is doing right now as with all the shit Kahanites and their stooges and stirrup holders are up to that’s never going to happen, they’ll never feel safe while continuing to antagonise. Fascists and their fucking need for eternal wars. I can still vividly recall when I gave up on Israel (part of my family moved there after the war, solid Labour Zionists): I was sitting on the floor, playing with Lego, listening to the radio, news came on, reported that the fucker killed Rabin.
It’s also the – not really critique, more like a question, that I have towards Germany’s stance on the whole thing: To support Jews having that homeland, sure, of course, but how far do we take this. Can we really call Israel a home for Jews if it’s just some random fascists no Jew elsewhere actually wants to have anything to do with, and do we really have to let it come to that before getting out the chairs for an intervention circle. Kinda waiting for New York Jews to rename a quarter there to Israel to put an end to this fiasco.
There are over 20 ethnostates in the immediate region…are you saying none of them have a right to exist or just the Jewish one?
Each of those states is built on Arab imperialism, built on the graves of the natives as you say. Most of them have banned various cultures (including Jews) and commited genocide or are currently involved in one…
and it must restrain itself impeccably when fighting against terrorists with human shields.
A base level of restraint would be fucking fantastic. Israel has killed more journalists in the past 10 weeks than ANYONE has EVER killed in a whole year. They dropped more bombs in a single week than America dropped in an entire year fighting ISIS, and in an area the size of a city. Calling it self defense is whitewashing intentional genocide.
The whole ‘why is Israel singled out?’ is just Israel’s main PR and main excuse for genocide. I find it hard to take anyone seriously when they make such a claim. You can tell them all these facts and they’ll pull out of their ass some other country with a shitty history and say, “OMG why are you holding us Israelis at a different standard?” as if we all forgot how it was after 9/11, how people protested the Iraq War, how no one justifies what Americans did to the natives… These people live in their own reality where everything is skewed and malformed to allow them to live in peace knowing too well they are committing ethnic cleansing and genocide.
I really applaud all the Israelis who refuse to serve in the IDF and who see it for what it is.
Zionism has had a long and troubled history by this point, and I don’t even know much below the surface. I’ll tell you right up front I view Israel as an apartheid state and I’m not even a leftist. It’s just right out there in the open, for anyone to see.
Here in the US, we have a Christian Nationalism movement that would love to set up exactly what Israel has in “The American Redoubt”, also known as “Greater Idaho”.
Fucking terrifies me and my property isn’t even in their sights for conquest. Building a nation state along ethnic or religious boundaries is wrong in my opinion. I hold that opinion because I’m an American who believes in immigration, mixing of races, and freedom for all. Just the phrase “Jewish nation” makes my skin crawl.
quick edit: of course, all the ethnostates surrounding Israel are immoral in my view also.
Israel has no right to exist where it does right now. No group of people has a right to force others out of their homes to establish a nation for themselves. By your logic if all peoples have a right to establish a nation wherever they see fit then the Roma people can justifiably show up in tel aviv tomorrow and start conquering the place since they have no nation of their own
Really upsetting that people think it’s acceptable to advocate for an ethnostate in a queer space.
This is a theoretical moral quandary I’ve tried to determine for myself and have yet to figure out:
How long is “long enough” between when one group forces another group out of its land and when the invading group should/can be accepted as the “rightful” group for that area?
I often point out that some Palestinian people who were forced out of their homes in the creation of Israel are still alive as reasoning for why it’s not right to have Israel exist where it is, so I know that “within a lifetime” is too short. At the same time, I also know that thousands of years (i.e. Israelite homeland) is too long to reclaim land, so I’ve narrowed it down (if you can call it that) to “more than a lifetime, less than a few millennia.”
What about a couple hundred years? Is it when everyone who originally lived on the land has grown old and died? When their children have? Grandchildren?
So much of human history is violence resulting in displacement. I feel like the line has historically been drawn at “when the original group is either wiped out or too weak to say anything anymore,” which is not the moral line for which I’m looking.
I’d be really interested to see what anyone else thinks on this.
I think you’re conflating 2 other things: Religion and culture.
Jews as a religion should absolutely not be allowed their own nation state, just as Islam shouldn’t and Christianity certainly shouldn’t either. In fact, there should be no religion-states at all. One of the fundamental values in democratic societies is freedom of religion; people should be allowed to believe whatever religion they want. Any state that interferes with that right is in violation of one of the basic human rights, and a religion-state is by definition violating that right.
Jews as a culture should absolutely be allowed their own nation state, in fact, that’s what Israel is. Such a state is indeed allowed to have interests, but “exterminating all non-Jews in the country” isn’t a legitimate interest. In fact, you’ll recall that a world war was triggered because a country wanted to exterminate a specific ethnic / religious group not only within their borders but also in their neighbors’ country. Such a state is also allowed to defend itself, but I think it’s normal for a persecuted people to resort to terrorism when other avenues for ending their persecution failed. That doesn’t give the right to the persecuter to persecute even more. You’ll note that we also heavily criticize the US for their “war on terrorism”, and rightly so. Gaza is also not an existential threat to Israel the way Russia is to Ukraine either. There’s a world of difference between the 2 conflicts.
So yeah, I guess I agree with you in part (there’s a difference between Jews in general and the Israeli government), but I really disagree with you on the “Jewish nation” part.
That said, I’m just a random dude from the other side of the world, and I don’t know anything about the specifics of the situation in the country, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
In fact, you’ll recall that a world war was triggered because a country wanted to exterminate a specific ethnic / religious group not only within their borders but also in their neighbors’ country.
WWII was triggered by Nazi Germany’s attempt to take over the world. Ending the Holocaust was just a fortunate side-effect of beating back the Germans and removing the Nazis from power. Nobody in power have a shit about Jews until people started seeing images from the death camps after they were liberated.
When I hear Israel has a right to exist because Jewish people need a home, I immediately wonder whether the person saying so would agree that Nazi Germany had a right to exist because German people needed a home. Nazi Germany is gone now and ethnic Germans seem better off for it.
Did you miss the part where I said ““exterminating all non-Jews in the country” isn’t a legitimate interest”?
But yeah, perhaps I should also mention that locking them up, putting them in ghettos, denying them equal opportunity, etc. isn’t a legitimate interest either.
EDIT: apparently I can’t Lemmy, I thought you were replying to me when we were in fact replying to the same comment.
I think a big part of it, here in the US, is besides all the post WW2 sentiment, a lot of folks here in the bible belt literally think they are God’s chosen people, and so whatever they do is right by God, no matter how terrible. I recently showed up for jury duty and was speaking to a lady there about her son who had joined the Marine Corps. and thought he might get deployed, and she said, I shit you not, “At least he’ll be fighting for God’s people”.
I’ve seen antisemitism. I’ve been in online communities that slowly devolved into rat caricatures and conspiracy theories about how Jews are out to destroy the world. So I know that modern antisemitism persists and is a thing to watch out for. But it’s not antisemitic to admit that Zionist Israel is butchering innocent people because they want to claim all of Palestine for themselves, and that the west is too weak willed to do anything about it for fear of being called antisemitic, or going against “God’s chosen people”. That’s not antisemitism, it’s an objective, observable fact.
The even bigger issue is the Bible Belt is those moron’s reading of Revelation, which has them thinking Israel has to control Jerusalem for the rapture to happen.
Bro can i just say that i fucking hate that anti-semetic is even an argument used when someone demonstrates support for Hamas? it doesnt even make sense because by definition both parties are semetic.
Regardless of semantics, and how Israel’s own actions are a very large part of the problem, you still gotta agree that Hamas is racist against Jews.
I’d agree that both states are racist. It’s why I don’t really think people should support Hamas or Israel carte blanche and why you can make a case that a blank unqualified statement of “I support (Israel/Hamas)” does seem quite racist.
Who the fuck supports Hamas? It’s an actual terrorist organization that’s oppressing people in Palestine
Every source I find suggests that Hamas has significant support from the people of Palestine
Colloquially yeah it makes a lot of sense to say Hamas is antisemitic, the word means hatred for Jews regardless of the etymology of ‘semite’. Take it up with marriam-webster, not the people correctly using the modern definition of the word
Hamas Charter, excerpt.
16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
if you choose to believe that Hamas is not antisemitic that’s your prerogative. I only note that so long as there is a hatred of Jews the word is being used correctly.
it doesnt even make sense because by definition both parties are semetic.
Oof, either you’re just grossly misinformed and performing a cringey “ackchually”, or you’re anti-semitic yourself and perpetuating anti-semitic rhetoric.
While yes, both are Semitic people, the term ‘anti-semitic’ was specifically coined by Nazi Germany to make their genocide seem like it had a basis in science. They specifically used it to refer to Jews. Nobody uses “anti-semitic” to mean all semites except hate groups and holocaust deniers who are trying to say “see, it doesn’t even mean Jews specifically! Jews are just playing the victim!”
I will assume you’re simply ignorant or misinformed, but feel free to correct me if this was actually an intentional dog-whistle.
Due to the root word Semite, the term is prone to being invoked as a misnomer by those who interpret it as referring to racist hatred directed at all “Semitic people” (i.e., those who speak Semitic languages, such as Arabs, Assyrians, and Arameans). This usage is erroneous; the compound word antisemitismus (lit. ‘antisemitism’) was first used in print in Germany in 1879[17] as a “scientific-sounding term” for Judenhass (lit. ‘Jew-hatred’),[18][19][20][21][22] and it has since been used to refer to anti-Jewish sentiment alone.
Best take on this. A lot of Jewish people said “we must never let this happen again,” but some motherfuckers took notes.
Everyone post-WW2: “Never again”
- Some people: “Never again should that be inflicted on anyone”
- Other people: “Never again should that be inflicted on the Jewish”
There’s a YouTube channel covering WWII week by week, and there’s a sister series called War Against Humanity, which covers the atrocities committed on all sides—not just the a death camps and the murders in the ghettos, but firebombing campaigns, the Japanese internment camps, the Bata’an death march, the famine in India at the hands of the Raj, and so on. Every episode ends with host Spartacus Olsson repeating the phase that we should be using, “Never forget”. Because a huge contingent of us seems to be forgetting.
