B since all movement is relative.
This was a triumph.
A, since portals cannot transfer momentum from the tram to the victims.
To put it another way, if you were standing and the portal was pushed towards you by a tram, do you think you would be launched out of the other side at that rate?
There might be some increase in momentum as the part of you that went through the portal first gets pushed forward by the parts of you that get pushed forward after, but it’s not going to be as dramatic as the momentum you would have received being hit by the tram.
Most likely you would stumble forward and fall down or have to catch yourself.
Portals maintain velocity. Velocity is relative. Therefore the velocity they maintain is the relative velocity of the portal and the subject. Any other way and there would be no consistent way to pass any moment when passing through a portal.
After thinking about it longer then i care to admit I think i finally agreed with you.
As you said it is all relative, from the prospective of the moving portal. You could say it isnt moving at all but the entire world around it is moving, thus when people enter the portal from the portal’s prospective they people are the ones moving and will continue moving when they exist.
Hmm tlnit that i typed this out I feel like i didn’t do a very good job. Owell the answer is B.
The reason this is so confusing with different answers is that the portals don’t really exist, so inherently whether you say a or b is gonna depend on assumptions. In game they aren’t allowed to move so we have nothing to base it on to match game physics.
Here’s my take, momentum is a product of velocity. Velocity needs a reference frame. Without it, there’s no real difference in saying the portal has a velocity of 0 and the people tied up have a the velocity and therefore momentum, or the other way around. If we assume velocity with respect to the portal is what matters and is the momentum carried forward, then it should be B. If it’s relative to the earth or tied up people, then A.
If portals did not apply a transient vector to your momentum then you could not pass through a portal.
Take for instance the many times Chell jumps through a portal. Her momentum is maintained as she passes through the portal, allowing her and her robot legs to do truly stupendous feats of gravity assisted acrobatics.
If Chell was stationary and the portal fell on her, she would not be launched out of the other side with the momentum of the portal, she would just find herself sticking out of the other side of the portal.
Similarly, if Chell were to ride a moving platform up into an overhead portal, we would expect the top half of Chell’s body to pop out of the portal without being accelerated by anything other than the moving platform on the bottom of her feet.
Therefore, unless there is some strange unknowable physics that we will not be able to discover until we develop portals of our own, the most likely outcome is that the victims on the tram would not gain any momentum as the portal was pushed into them, and they would plop out safely on the other side.
it’s relative to the earth or tied up people, then A.
If it is relative to the earth, they would be crushed at an atomic level.
Imagine the trolley-portal is passing around a tape measure at 10m/s. The tape measure is stationary on the earth. After 10 seconds, 100m of tape has entered the portal in a straight line. For me to have 100m of tape in a straight line at the exit, the end of the tape has to be moving away from the portal at 10m/s. Given that “crushed into a singularity” is not an option, we can assume the velocity cannot be relative to earth, and must be relative to the portal.
C, it combines the victim into a horrible overlapping monster of body parts
If I stick my arm in a stationary (relative to earth surface) portal, I expect my arm to stick out of the exit portal. If the exit portal is moving at 10m/s over the earth, I expect my arm to also be moving 10m/s over the earth. My arm is stationary relative to the portal, but the portal is moving.
If that portal is moving toward a standing person and I make a fist, I expect my fist to hit that person at 10m/s. I am stationary relative to the earth; they are stationary relative to the earth, but my fist is moving at 10m/s relative to the earth. From their perspective, I punched them. From my perspective, they ran into my fist.
If I look through the portal, I will see them approaching me at 10m/s. They will see me inside the portal, approaching them at 10m/s. When the portal passes around them, they will not feel any change in their velocity, they will just collide with me immediately after the portal passes around them. To them, the earth will seem to suddenly be moving at 10m/s.
All motion is relative. To understand how the people will move, we need to look at them relative to the portal. If the trolly is moving at 5 m/s relative to the ground, then the people are moving at 1 m/s relative to it. So they enter the portal moving at 1 m/s and exit at the same speed.
I think Portal solved this conundrum by saying portals can’t move.
Energy is relative when there is a frame of reference.
When the tram-portal is the frame of reference, the person has the energy. And speedy thing goes in, speedy thing comes out.
Using Portals canon, the person cannot be the frame of reference (ie 0 energy), because the portal has to move for that scenario - which is Portal-ly impossible. So the person has to come flying out.
If you break Portals canon and say that portals can move, then then the person would likely be super-compacted (matter transporting on top of existing matter) into a singularity or just destroyed.
Portal breaks its own canon on Portal 2’s neurotoxin implosion scene though.
There’s literally nothing in the universe that is ‘stationary’ so the entire concept is flawed.
They totally can move though. In one of the puzzles there’s a button that makes part of a wall angle itself so that you can propel yourself forward, and the portal on it will move.
Frames of reference matter. Whether the train or the people moving happened it doesnt matter to the portal. There is net movement and the momentum is the mass of the person moving x the speed of the train.
Imagine the train was moving the speed of light. If the person exiting the other end of the portal wasnt coming out at the speed of light their body would come out like a soup. All the atoms in their body compressing to escape at some randomly low speed… actually it might make a tiny black hole on the other end as the atoms compress infinitely.
A portal is as another commenter has framed it, essentially a hula hoop with a different space on the other side of it.
It doesn’t matter how fast a hula hoop falls over your body. You are not going to be launched out of the other side of the hula hoop even if the hula hoop is moving at the speed of light.
If the hula hoop is moving at the speed of light you are more likely to be killed by the shockwave of all of the atoms in front of the hula hoop compressing to adapt to the sudden intrusion of a lightspeed object with Mass, in which case it is very likely that you would pop out of the other side as some sort of soup, but that would not be because of your interaction with the portal inside of the hula hoop, or the acceleration of the hula hoop itself but rather the acceleration of the things around the hula hoop as it moved through space.
Portal would fail due to being placed on moving object
I would imagine that the relative motion between the entry/exit portal would be more important than the absolute motion of the two portals.
Portal 2 ends with you (Chell) placing a entry portal on Earth vs an exit portal on the Moon.
That means the portals were ~2236 mph (aka Mach3) relative to each other.
So if portals didn’t have a distance maximum, assuming that they twist through some higher dimension or into an alternate universe and back or something like that, it would make sense that you could open a portal on Earth and on Mars and anything you push through that portal would maintain its velocity relative to Earth.
Which could result in some hilarious events where things basically detonate the instant they are pushed through as they are slammed into the surface of Mars at potentially ten of thousands of miles an hour depending on the Earths and Mars’ relative velocities.
Despite that, there would also undoubtedly be times where their velocities synchronize due to their varying rotational locations and orbital velocities around the solar system, during which times you could conceivably quite easily step from Earth to Mars in a single go.
The safe thing to do though would be to decant from the Earth into a portal that is in orbit around Mars far enough away that at the worst you would experience some relatively gentle abrasion from the smattering of hydrogen atoms in the space surrounding Mars and then parachute down from orbit.
It needs to be 2. Otherwise all the people will materialize inside eachother. In fact, everyone will be deposited onto the 2-dimensional pane of the blue portal itself, like an infinitely thing coat of paint, absolutely smearing them.
Think about it. As your fingertips enter the orange portal, they materialize at the entrance of the blue portal. Then your wrist enters the orange portal, where does it materialize at the blue portal?
- If your fingers shift to make room, then that has imparted momentum and it’s option B.
- If you continue to materialize on the other side of the portal like a mirror image, then for all intents and purposes the blue portal is also moving at the same speed as the orange portal, even if orange ring appears still.
- If your fingertips don’t have momentum and your wrist materializes at the portal, then your wrist is occupying the same space as your fingertips. Congratulations, you’re now a paste.
For whatever reason I feel more willing to break conservation of momentum than I am to
It’s two dimensional in the sense that the surface of the portal is a plane, through which things pass.
So as things pass through the portal, conservation of momentum is either preserved or it isn’t, with respect to a constant observer. What happens as they partly enter the portal in both of these situations?
If momentum is preserved, and they have zero momentum going in to the portal, then they are motionless as they exit the portal. There is nothing to cause your hand to move out of the way for your arm. Scaled down to the atomic level, you become a paste.
So you say that your hand moves out of the way because it is connected to your arm. The fact that it moves out of the way fast enough to make room for your arm means that it has velocity, and therefore momentum. The momentum means that it (and you) would get launched into the air, but conservation of momentum was violated.
There is no scenario where you exit the portal motionless but intact.
Good explanation.
This has the interesting implication that the relative speed between the portals is “added” to whatever goes through it.
Example: the blue portal is on a train running with the same speed in opposite direction. The people-bundle would instantaneously be accelerated to twice the speed of each of the trains. (This becomes a real headscratcher if you were able to put the portals in a particle accelerator)
Yeah I really think you’ve misunderstood some things. An infinitely thin coat of paint? Are you familiar with the mechanics of the Portal games?
It would be like dropping a hula hoop over a basketball. Regardless of how fast the hoop falls, the basketball still just sits there.
I really think you didn’t read my full comment, because I explained the problem with this exact scenario.
First, in your hoolahoop example both sides of the hoop are moving with the same velocity (this is essentially option 3 I described). But the entire thought experiment is “what if the two sides didn’t move with the same velocity”
If you’ve played the game, you know that you don’t instantly teleport when you touch the portal, you can be half in the portal. This means that when something enters the portal, it is deposited on the surface of the other portal. So as your arm enters the portal, your hand needs to move out of the way to make space for your arm.
If your hand doesn’t move out of the way to make room for your arm (it is still because it has the same momentum that it had when it entered) then your arm will materialize in the same space as your hand. Now scale that down to the atomic level, if the atoms of your fingertips don’t move for the next atoms, everything will be deposited in a 1 atom thick film.
If your hand does move out of the way fast enough to make room for your arm, then it is moving at the same speed that the train was moving. Your momentum from that speed would fling you into the air.
In no scenario do you just pop out intact but motionless.
I just don’t agree that’s how it would work. You can’t gain momentum simply by passing through a portal. The portal cannot create momentum. The object passing through has no kinetic energy going in, it can’t have kinetic energy coming out. It would exit the portal at the velocity of the first portal, as the entry portal passes over the object, and then the object would drop to the ground.
That is assuming both portals have speed. If the other portal was on the back of the train it would be like a hula hoop but if the other one is stationary you have the people going in really fast and coming out of the stationary portal at that speed.
Why?
Where does the energy even come from?
A hole/portal doesn’t create or generate energy it just passes things through.
Just think of it as a hole across space because that is exactly what a portal is.
Obviously A
starts world war 3
Yeah definitely A. The momentum of the object going through the portal matters not the objective that has the portal on it.
But how would the objects get on the other side then? The receiving side isn’t moving, so the objects essentially need to be pushed through the portal at the speed at which the train is moving, resulting in B. The only way A could work would be both portals moving at the same relative speed.
I see it like throwing a hoola hoop around something. The object will pass through without having its speed affected.
Here’s how I always phase it. Imagine you have a shovel and you are using that shovel to flick some dog shit into your neighbours garden.
With no portal the shit hits the shovel and you flick it, transfering the speed of the shovel into the turds. You stop the shovel and the turds fly away.
Now imagine the shovel has a big rusty hole in it. So it’s like a n shape. No portal yet. You go to flick the dog dumps but you just pass straight over them with the hole and the dumps go nowhere. The dumps have gained no momentum because nothing touched them and transferred that to them.
Now put a portal on the end of the shovel. As you sweep it over the cack has anything touched them? Has any object transferred it’s momentum to the dog eggs? No, so the dumps just gently tumble out of the other side of the portal.
But even in the image example, how would that work? The people have no momentum, they wouldn’t flop out, just fall back through, and then stay half in half not. According to you, air resistance wouldn’t even push them out because as soon as it goes through the portal the air is not moving relative to the people. I think your blatant lack of respect for relativity is unnerving and gets super confusing very quickly.
I think that’s a very strong argument and a great metaphor, but you forget relativity.
All reference frames are valid - you could say the Earth and the people are moving and the train is stationary, you could say the train is moving and the earth and people are stationary, or you could say they each have a vector moving around the sun or anything else
But when you travel through a portal, the only valid reference frames are you and the entry portal. Your momentum relative to the Earth doesn’t matter - why would it? You can open a portal to the moon and jump through, and we see momentum is preserved. The Earth isn’t a special reference frame, it’s just the most noticeable one.
So let’s pick the reference frame of someone on the track. Let’s look through the portal and say there’s a sign on the other side - as it approaches, you’d see a sign approaching you through the portal. Relative to you, through the portal the sign is moving at 30mph. The portal passes over you - you haven’t moved, but you enter a new reference frame, a frame in which the Earth and everything on it is moving at 30mph
Except the momentum changes with portals most of the time anyway. Momentum is a vector, not just a scalar, meaning momentum has both a scalar and a direction component. And that direction component usually must be conserved as well. But portals change the direction of momentum all the time relative to the orientation of the entering and exiting portals. If the direction of the momentum of the object is relative to the orientation of the portal, then it makes as much sense that the scalar of the momentum would be relative to the velocity of the portal as well.
Energy is not conserved either, which is why the infinite falling box arrangement means the box keeps accelerating downwards gaining kinetic energy even though it started out with a much smaller, finite potential energy. Portals and conservation do not mix well.
As the people on the track are moving at an accelerated speed of 0 m/s, normally a train would apply the full force of the train moving to the meat bags human ethic problems on the tracks.
As newton’s first law states F = m*a, or Force = Mass * acceleration
F = x * 0 = 0 N of force
thus, they could just plop out as if falling after having a chair removed.
I think it has to be A. You figure that if it were B, the people on the track would suddenly be traveling at a high velocity, but the train’s velocity wouldn’t be impacted at all, since there was no impact between the train and the people. Wouldn’t this mean that the portal had created energy, which is impossible?
But portals can create energy. Put one above the other face to face and drop an object into the bottom one, it now has infinite potential energy.
… fuck. You’re absolutely right. All my theorems - flushed down the drain.
I mentioned this elsewhere but this line of reasoning may have a huge flaw, and that flaw is that energy has to be spent to maintain the portals operation. We do not currently know what the relationship is between the amount of mass that is moved through a portal and how much energy it takes to keep the portal operational.
So when you take into account the total entropy of the system you also have to include the entropy of the earth and the entropy of the power systems that maintain the portals.
As I said earlier, if you were to put a magnet inside of a vacuum tube that was welded to itself through the portal and then wrapped coils around that tube to drain the electromagnetic energy from the falling magnet, the energy that you were extracting from the system would come from either converting the mass of the planet into energy or it would be a total net loss as the amount of energy needed to maintain the portal would be greater than any amount of energy you could extract from the system no matter how fast the magnet inside of it was moving or how perfectly configured your coils were.
After all, as the magnet approaches the speed of light eventually its mass would be come equal to or greater than the mass of the planet, and that would cause the portal to lift the Earth towards itself.
However, coils on electromagnetics exert electromotive braking Force, and when you account for e that Force you can prevent the magnet from reaching luminal speeds, but I still don’t think you’re going to have an over-unity device.
Think of a portal as a door, if someone brings an open door up to you (idk maybe it’s on wheels or something) and you go through it, you don’t suddenly fly through the frame.
If the door is moving 1 meter per second, you are relatively moving 1 m/s towards the door even if you are stationary on the ground. You pass and, although you are still stationary to the ground, you are still moving 1 m/s in the same direction relative to the door. The door is the frame of reference, not the ground.
Another violation is that they conserve speed, not velocity. Put 2 portals 90° apart. Travel into the first perpendicular to the surface. You’ll exit the second perpendicular to its surface. That means you accelerated to change direction, which takes energy. Portals don’t conserve momentum or energy.
No way, the portal displaces space meaning it just allows gravity to work unimpeded adding more kinetic energy to the object. The potential energy during a “falling cycle” is infinite but infinitely removed when the spacial disruption is broken.
By moving an object laterally into the portal falling loop, you would do no work and increase the potential energy of the object to effectively infinity. You would be creating energy.
In classical physics you would be right, but in modern physics there is no standard frame of reference. It’s equally correct to think that the people are still and portal is moving as it is to think that portal is still and people go in it immn fast speed.
Regardless, people and portal have large speed difference going in, so there will be large speed difference going out.
