“There’s this wild disconnect between what people are experiencing and what economists are experiencing,” says Nikki Cimino, a recruiter in Denver.
“I just made the most expensive purchase of my life and I can’t figure out why I am living paycheck to paycheck.”
Why would buying a house have you living cheque to cheque? Do you think you buy something on credit and then all your income gets taken until it’s paid back? I’m genuinely confused about what you’re trying to say, here.
Also, it’s not like she’s paying for her mortgage in addition to whatever she was doing previously (presumably rent). The mortgage payment replaces your rent payment.
It kind of does, though. She look out a mortgage and those have a monthly cost.
What OP is probably saying is that if you have a certain income level and then you choose to take on a debt that you’re going to have trouble paying back, that’s mistake that you made and should have seen coming. This wasn’t an unforseen medical bill, the person in the article could have chosen to buy a cheaper condo or rented until rates were more favorable.
She also really should have finished paying off that CC debt and delayed the down payment; that’s just a killer and is almost certainly at 3 or 4 times the interest rate of her mortgage, which incidentally could have been a bit lower if her debt-to-income ratio were better. Shit sucks, but somebody who’s doing okay and fucks it up gets less sympathy from me than people who would do anything to be living paycheck to paycheck with a steady income and home ownership.
Also gotta love how many of these people remember Trump fondly because he was president WHILE THE GOVERNMENT WAS CUTTING THEM CHECKS! That’s absolutely not gonna be his plan in round two.
What OP is probably saying is that if you have a certain income level and then you choose to take on a debt that you’re going to have trouble paying back, that’s mistake that you made and should have seen coming
If that’s what they’d said, I wouldn’t take issue with it. Of course a person has to do the maths, buying a home isn’t a light decision. But the size of the purchase isn’t at all related to living cheque to cheque, which was in the words they chose.
If I borrow a half million from the bank, I have to pay it back in monthly installments, commonly known as a mortage. Those costs are now added to your regular expenses.
Most rents are cheaper than mortages. So taking on a giant purchase + the cost of the mortage is a huge financial cost. Yes, she gets an asset (which she could sell at any point) but it’s going to be more expensive.
A quick look at Denver apartments for rent confirms this, a lot of 1 bedrooms available for between $400 and $500 cheaper a month.
Most rents are cheaper than mortages.
Yeah because rental properties are often shitholes and it skews the numbers
For the same exact property, rent is absolutely more expensive than a mortgage. Rent is usually paying for someone’s mortgage for them, why would they make it lower? Who are these generous landlords?
You are surprisingly comfortable condescending to people when you’re incredibly wrong and clearly have no idea how any of this works.
- A mortgage doesn’t get added to your expenses, a mortgage replaces some of them. Specifically, it replaces rent, most peoples’ largest expense;
- Mortgage payments repay some interest and the rest goes straight into equity;
- If your home gains market value, you don’t pay more mortgage, but you do get more equity;
- A fixed rate mortgage means your housing costs stay the same for the term of the mortgage.
Seriously, if you’re in the US you can get a fixed rate mortgage for a term of 30 years. There’s literally no way to lose that one. Rates go up? Haha fuck my bank I pay the same mortgage. Rates go down? Haha fuck my bank I refinance so now I pay less even if rates go back up again.
Buying property as soon as I was able was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made, and I was not able to buy it particularly early. My head hurts a little bit whenever I think about how much money I’ve burned on rent in my life. And that phrasing is deliberate, I may as well have set the money on fucking fire for all the future good it bought me.
Edit: By the way:
Yes, she gets an asset (which she could sell at any point) but it’s going to be more expensive.
It’s going to be more expensive than what? Renting it? If someone rents something, they don’t get an asset. You only get assets when you buy them, because they have to be legally yours to call them an asset. So no, buying isn’t a more expensive way to get the same asset. It’s the only way to make it your asset.
Probably because she bought more house than she could afford, and prioritized that over paying off get credit cards.
Right, so then, her issue wasn’t the size of the purchase, is that she didn’t do the maths beforehand to make sure it was a good idea.
So why are you trying to insist that the problem is the amount of money spent, rather than this lady not doing the maths?
To be fair, they don’t actually own their house if they’re paying a mortgage.
It wouldn’t be any different if she was renting.
I’m not sure why they call her a homeowner when the bank actually owns her house.
There’s a term for this, HENRY. High Earner, Not Rich Yet. The lie is the “Yet”. Millennials and Gen Xers have been struggling to reach the middle class that is kept perpetually out of reach. They have given up on the idea of financial solvency and are going into debt to indulge in luxuries like having children, going on vacations, and living somewhere that isn’t a complete shithole. Saving for retirement is as realistic as training to live on Mars, so why bother? Keep digging a financial hole and then lie down and die in it.
Gen X here and I can’t afford to contribute to my retirement. Even had to withdraw some during unemployment. I’m either working until I die or hoping assisted suicide becomes legal in 20 years.
Gen Millennial here. I can assist you on your suicide that day for a hot meal so I can at least eat on that day. Maybe someone from Gen Z can assist my suicide if I leave him my blanket then.
A hot meal? If you’re eating the person who just suicided then you could probably stretch those left overs out for at least a week or two.
You might be on to something here…
Yep. Same. I do pretty good for myself and I’m more fortunate than most, but I had to borrow money from my dad recently for a series of expenses I couldn’t absorb in real time. I got the “you don’t know how to budget” sermon. It felt as fun as you’d expect
I said fuck it and gave him a list of earnings and expenses (I’m pretty frugal) and he was like, “oh…”
On the bright side, 9mm is cheaper than a retirement home. Somebody’s getting a blowjob on my 60th birthday, and it ain’t gonna be me!
What most people don’t realize is that once you have excess income, you have options. What you do with the excess is what matters. If you don’t save and invest it, you’ll be living paycheck to paycheck for the rest of your life.
A lot of folks think being rich means just spending money on whatever you want. That’s not really the case. If you spend the excess on fancy cars or luxury items that make others think you’re rich, the irony is you’ll be working for a long time and never actually become financially independent.
Edit: well, if I’ve learned anything from this comment, it’s that everyone on Lemmy identifies as a HENRY with bad spending habits no matter how much money they make. Or, at least a temporarily embarrassed one.
Every time ive tried investing, i had to take it out after a few months to pay for something thats popped up in life after other things have raided my savings.
Investing is for people with a lot of excess cash.
Precisely, which is why I don’t think my comment is directed at you. If you’re always trying to get ahead of the latest unexpected big expense, you’re not a “HENRY.”
I don’t know your situation, but investing is riskier than a savings account, that currently yeilds a high interest rate.
If you need an emergency fund, make one in a high yield savings account first. My rough number is $10,000. “You’re missing out on the gains” is an incredibly shortsighted view people have in the stock market. “Gains” are made over 20 year periods.
Except that’s not at all what OP said or was implying. Nice way of pushing the blame on the people affected rather than the broken system we live in.
Most people are struggling with the basics, not disputing that. But, then I wouldn’t consider those people HENRYs.
When I look around, I also see a lot of people with high income making boneheaded moves like buying expensive vehicles, renting luxury apartments, etc. For some people the problem isn’t the system, it’s their own lack of self-control or planning. If you’re making $200,000 and still feel broke. Maybe that $1,500/month car payment was a mistake. Maybe you shouldn’t have used the raise to move into a luxury apartment building.
When I was starting my career all my coworkers lived in $2200/month luxury buildings. I knew we all made roughly the same amount of money, so was shocked that they would pay this much for rent. Meanwhile, I sought out roommates and paid $650. With the money I saved, I paid off my student loan debt aggressively. Now all these people are struggling to get to the next step in life. Yeah, I could’ve seen that coming 10 years ago for you.
I see the same thing with cars. Everyone wants to own some luxury SUV. And, they make fun of me for driving a Prius. I won’t be surprised in another 10 years when they’re still struggling.
This isn’t an attack on people who don’t have the money. This is an attack on people who do and can’t plan well, but then act surprised when they’re broke still.
Dude, i pay near $400 a month in just student loan payments. I had to buy a “new” car last year and this 8 year old Subaru cost me $360 a month. I could have bought another $4000 beater, but that’s a hole you never get out of because you are constantly having to replace cars that aren’t worth the scrap they are made of. Everyone has been on a knifes edge for the past 16 years and now everything costs double from them but wages have been the same. No amount of budgeting is gonna fix that.
I didn’t say that… my comment isn’t directed at people who are living paycheck to paycheck. It’s directed at people who think they should be rich because they have a high income, yet always seem to have found some unnecessary thing to spend their money on, which prevents them from building wealth.
If you’re always struggling to pay your bills, you need to increase your income. Not saying it’s your fault, just that practically that’s the best thing you can do for yourself in an imperfect system rigged against everyone but the very rich.
Didn’t you just say you improved your budget situation by buying a more reliable car?
If you don’t save and invest it, you’ll be living paycheck to paycheck for the rest of your life.
I don’t think you really know what “living paycheck to paycheck” actually means if you think it, in any way, involves investing.
I think his point is people are only living paycheck to paycheck out of choice when they could save and invest if they tightened their belts.
Not saying I agree, just explaining his perspective.
You can have very high income and still live paycheck to paycheck if you spend every paycheck
I try to save whatever extra I have, because everyone says I need to have six months of expenses saved.
The problem is that before I can save up enough to cover that there’s some huge expense that I need to cover that empties it out and puts me even more into debt.
If I could manage to save up a year of expenses, I could probably start my own consulting agency and start making a lot of money, but I just can’t get there.
This is really stupid.
You’re basically telling people “just be rich” like it’s that simple.
People living paycheck-to-paycheck are not able to invest money because they don’t have excess income, they get to decide if they want to pay for rent or want to pay for food. Combine that with astonishing inflation rates and salary raises that don’t match cost of living increases or simply layoffs, and we have one fucked up situation.
This is a systemic problem. Billionaires shouldn’t exist. Billionaires are a societal problem.
edit: Oh, I see your comment isn’t directed at people living paycheck-to-paycheck, that’s a bit more reasonable then but I still think you’re missing the mark. It’s not as simple as “just increase your income” like you seem to be thinking it is.
The problem in this thread is that there are people - such as the one mentioned in the title of this article - that are living paycheck-to-paycheck by choice. They choose to spend their entire paycheck on stuff. They don’t need to spend it all, they could save some, but instead they buy the biggest houses they can afford or build a deck they don’t actually need.
There are people who would literally die if they tried to significantly reduce their spending. Those are the people who don’t have a choice, and I sympathize with them and want solutions for this because it’s a serious problem. The others I have somewhat less sympathy for.
The problem is that for many folks the amount they are making isn’t enough for them to live a very reasonable life AND they have nothing to invest in the first place. Suppose a household in a given area needs $100,000 to afford a VERY modest house in that area, health insurance, savings, healthy food etc. Now suppose the house has one disabled breadwinner and one fellow working for $40,000.
Because of this they live in shit town in a tiny apartment a building full of drug addicts in a not so great part of the state wherein the average life expectancy is about 10 years less than one of the good parts of the country.
The first 40k of “excess” would be spent on having a decent life, working a sane number of hours, moving into an actual home. For fully half the country the idea of having excess is laughable. It’s a crass joke.
My SO has a medical condition that limits her income. I’m in academia, so I don’t make much and work crazy hours. We get to have happy day to day, and save money to invest by renting a shity apartment. As in, my investment account is worth more than that of some friends in software development, cus they wanted to live in good apartments.
It doesn’t matter that average life expectancy is 10 years shorter. It matters why. Are people randomly getting murdered or constantly exposed to high air pollution? Don’t live there. Is it shorter cus they are mostly stupid fucks that eat shity food and their only hobby is smoking on the bench below the building? You can live there fine, those are my neighboors. Doesn’t stop me from eating healthy home made food, staying in shape and saving money.
Am I happy about it? No, I will never own a house, and it sucks cus I love to tinker, and enjoy growing plants. But I can live a full filling live, better than any king that ever lived up till around the 18-19 century, and save money.
The economic system is dead, it died in 2008. Combine that with climate change, and things are only going to get worse. Unless some politician is going to pull out free, infinite, energy machine out of their arse they can’t do much as the system is already collapsing.
You can be smart about it, and have a few more happy years before we all die. Or you can be stupid about it, and suffer till we all die.
- am not a USA citizen, the problem is global.
Most areas don’t need $100,000 a year to afford a “very modest house”, you could get a nice mobile home and afford to pay off the loan in just a couple years.
OP is like: Even if you have highly-valuable skills, you can’t get ahead, because the game is stacked in favor of renting out your assets instead of delivering valuable labor.
Reply is like: Yeah, but have you considered renting out your assets though?
I might be “rich” when my parents die, depending on how much elder care they need.
I’m actually kind of looking forward to the day I look my kids in the eye and say “I’m going out to look for firewood” and just walk out into the snow and die.
But there won’t be any snow anymore so I’ll just wander off into a slightly chilly night.
What if we just financed all our kids advantages on our own credit for them and then promptly died?
What would happen to the debt?
Say I max out my credit card for their down payment on a house and then go “get firewood”.
They definitely try to track large cash gifts when putting down a down payment on a house.
I’d rather look forward to the improvements in technology that make elder care less expensive.
Her mortgage is $1650/mo, which is incredibly reasonable in Denver. I think this specific person’s problems have more to do with her recent divorce. She was used to splitting costs, and probably spent quite a bit on the divorce itself
She’s paying $1650 for a house? You’d pay more for a house in a neighborhood where every night is the purge here.
…that’s more than I’d make with minimum wage in my state, which I don’t think is that far behind colorado. Yikes.
ETA: ok nvm I did math and if you make a little over $10/hr 40 hrs a week, your entire paycheck would go just toward that.
You’re still off unfortunately.
Full time at $10/hr is $1600/month before income tax. For simplicity, we’ll say federal+state tax is 15% so now we’re at $1360. Social security is 6.2% so take away another $100.
Then, of course, this is the United States where most people have to rely on their employees for “affordable” health insurance - and often still have money taken out of their check for it.
So now we’re at $1000-1260 monthly take home pay for a full time job at $10/hr
The standard deduction is $13850 so there’s no way you’re paying 15% tax on an income of $20,000
You’re paying about a little over $600 federal plus whatever state tax and usually state tax is less than federal, but depends on the state. In some states you don’t pay state income taxes.
So best case scenario you pay a little over 3% federal and no state.
“affordable” health insurance
At that income, you would qualify for Medicaid.
It’s always been pretty interesting to me how crazy the price of living changes. $1650 a month for a house seems insane to me.
In order to keep your mortgage at 1/3 your income, you would need to be making $700,000/yr.
At a certain point - isn’t it just cheaper to move to a cheaper area?
Not that it’s easy. It’s what I had to do. 6 hours away from friends/family.
Wages took a 25% hit. Bills took a >50% hit so came up on top.
As someone with mortage of 520€/month there’s nothing reasonable in what she’s paying. I don’t care if it comes with 6 bedrooms, a maid, cook, gardener and a chauffeur - I’m not paying that. I’m more than fine in my tiny granny cottage on the outskirts of a middle sized city.
Hey, somebody’s gotta pay for the highest corporate profits in 70 years.
Exactly that. On average the economy is doing fine but it’s skewed very heavily towards the top and nothing much for the 90%. The median income is actually decreasing.
I would LOVE to see a source on this, but I have a feeling I already know where it is coming from.
Yes, bottom 10% are doing better and the top 10%. That means the middle is getting hollowed out and the whole thing turns into a very divided society. That’s not a good thing.
Important to note:
Companies aren’t just raising prices enough to cover costs, they’re padding their margins on top.
Just saying that their profit is higher means nothing because of inflation. Inflation will mean that their profits are more often than not the highest they have ever been every year. But the highest margins? That shows they are price gouging.
If you want to know how bad we’re being fucked, search for the PPI, the producer price index. CPI, the one we always hear about, is the measure of inflation to us, the consumer. The PPI is the measure of inflation to producers, what they pay for goods and services to produce the goods and services we buy.
The PPI has been back to “normal” for a while now. Pretty much as soon as the post COVID logistics issues were mostly ironed out. The difference between PPI and CPI changes is almost all profit.
We don’t get daily articles on the PPI though, I wonder why.
Tell people about PPI whenever you can, online or off, the more people know, the better. It’s easy enough to say inflation is just down to greed but being able to back it up by comparing two simple charts will help people really understand.
I couldn’t find a comparable historical CPI chart on the BLS website, just a 12 month average and historical data by region. Are you able to find something to compare that chart to? It’s kind of difficult to grasp intuitively (without a comparison, that is).
Nikki Cimino, a 40-year-old recruiter living in Denver, said she finally saved up enough to buy a condo last year, but missed out on the ultra-low interest rates that had made homeownership more affordable in the early days of the pandemic. Her 5.25% interest rate pushed her monthly payments to $1,650. After a divorce in 2020, she’s shouldering $4,000 in credit card debt.
It’s the credit card debt…
Instead of paying that off since 2020, she saved a down payment and bought an expensive condo. She’s wasting a shit ton of money on interest because credit cards are all like 20-30%
Credit cards are predatory, if you ever carry a balance to the next month, that needs to be your highest priority.
Do a transfer to get 0% each year if you have to when recovering from emergencies. But paying credit interest for years is insane.
Holy crap! She was “saving up” to buy a condo instead of using that money to pay off the credit cards? That’s absolutely insane. I really feel like society would benefit immensely if there were mandatory financial literacy courses every 4 years, or at least before any major purchases (house, car, etc).
Or just common sense laws against predatory lending by capping interest rates.
Most people don’t have a safety net and live paycheck to paycheck.
A huge expense comes up, and rather than get a bank loan at even 8-10%, it goes on a credit card
Companies have a tiny “minimum payment” because they don’t want you to pay it off. They want that balance to grow while people ignore it. They don’t want it back now, they want thousands more later.
Pretty sure every cc has the minimum payment higher than the interest. If you just stop buying shit you’ll pay it off eventually, even if you can only afford the minimum payment. The balance can’t grow unless you’re still buying shit.
For Denise and Paul Nierzwicki, credit cards are the only way to make ends meet. The couple, ages 69 and 72, respectively, have about $20,000 in debt spread across multiple cards, all with interest rates above 20%.
The trouble started during the pandemic, when Denise lost her job and a business deal for a bar that they owned in their hometown of Lexington, Kentucky, went bad.
They applied for Social Security, which helped, and Denise now works 50 hours a week at a restaurant. Still, they’re barely scraping together the minimum payments for their credit card debt.
Jesus. I don’t see how this gets un-fucked without a massive wave of defaults. And that’ll just lead to a different kind of fucked.
