People need to stop holding Jobs up as some deity of tech. He was a marketing and hype man that was in the right place at the right time and knew how to take advantage of that luck. Nothing more, nothing less. It is equally possible his leadership style would have squandered the opportunities Apple has had since his death had it been him and not Cook in charge.
By any metric other than “line must always go up” Apple is doing just fine.
“Oh no, they haven’t found another multi hundred billion dollar product to release since the iPhone, even though there are no signs that the iPhone won’t continue to be a very profitable business for years and years to come…better go dig up Steve jobs, shove a stick up his back, magic his corpse back to life, and beg him to save the shareholders profit margins”, the horror.
He was very much the Elon Musk of his times, and it’s very possible he would have gone down the same route of extremist views and decisions that completely failed because of his egoism.
He died because he didn’t listen to his doctor’s advice. That is somewhat extreme.
Had pancreatitis because of his diet. A diet in which he thought would magically avoid creating body odor.
It turned into cancer. He lucked out that it was a rare form of treatable pancreatic cancer with a 90% survival rate 5 years out. Which is abnormal as most forms of pancreatic are essentially a death sentence. Survival rate past 3 years is under 10% for the more common variants.
Stuck to his diet anyway. Ignored his doctors. Died to an illness he had a 90% chance of beating because he knew better.
He believed in the teachings of a 20th century cultist who said you excreted mucus based on dietary choices, and therefore didn’t have to worry about health or bathing unless you ate poorly. (Stinky dude who also made an 8 yr old cry for eating a cheeseburger).
Wish everyone health but guy was as extreme as it gets in regards to being an asshole. Denied his daughter, settled child support days before taking Apple into the public market, etc.
To be fair, we saw formerly what Apple without jobs did, it was a failure. So one might wonder when the new Apple might run out. The catch being that the iPhone, app store, and iTunes are all indefinite money machines, except maybe iPhone one day. So they had a steak of ever increasingly wildly successful products that culminated in the iPhone and then no mind blowing follow-up, but they don’t need one. Folks may like the narrative that Jobs death coincided with their last big product category though
We also saw Jobs without Apple, also pretty much a failure.
NeXT was successful at being an application for the position of CEO at apple.
It is equally possible his leadership style would have squandered the opportunities Apple has had since his death had it been him and not Cook in charge.
Look at NeXT right before Apple ‘bought’ them. They were pretty much on their deathbed. Turns out, marketing $10,000 workstations to college students isn’t such a smart idea.
The amount of credit people give Steve Jobs is such a kick to the nuts to all the engineers that designed those products
Jobs basically had one job - be the screaming obnoxious asshole in charge who harangued the engineers until they came up with something to his liking. And then took the credit when they did. Basically just the Elon Musk of his day.
“I’m vegan! I don’t need to shower! I don’t produce mucus or smell because of my superior diet. Brb I’m gonna go wash my feet in the toilet!” -Steve Jobs
Except I can look at Jobs’ history and see an actual progression in technology. With Musk there is literally nothing but nonsensical hyped up promises.
Why can’t you make the same argument for that dick hole musk? Neither one has any engineering capabilities, and were a non-technical figurehead overseeing people with the actual talents making the technology better.
Jobs may have had an actual design element of input that I doubt musk has, but neither one of them actually improved technology; they have smarter people working for them that can do it. That’s especially true of Jobs with Woz, one of the actual people who improved technology at apple.
Im not praising musk, and i really think he fucked up his lead on twitter and tesla, but he is very much similar to jobs. Neither musk nor jobs have done really any of the engineering work, but both have had their hands in some pretty remarkable tech. Musk with paypal, spacex, tesla. Again, im not saying hes a good engineer, he hasnt done anything, but to discredit those companies is unfair.
I think we can give Musk credit for progressing technology - electric cars & space rocketry and some other things. But he is also an incredible asshole, has little regard for the people who work for him, has no inner filter and has some incredibly stupid hot takes.
The same with Musk. People are seeing him as the sole engineer of Tesla and SpaceX while in reality anonymous engineers did all this possible.
And it doesn’t help Musk calls himself lead engineer or whatever at times.
I think in one of his autobiographies he was claiming that he self educated how to build rockets from some books and I wonder how much of this is true and how much is coming from his ego.
I do have a black turtleneck and without thinking I came into work wearing it with jeans. That with my glasses, well I got teased a bit.
Im not gonna sit here and shill for people like job and musk. But i have to say there is somethkng to be said about steering a ship in the right direction.
Jobs knew how to market the products, and steer the engineers in the right direction.
One thing he always said was that there only needed to be one iphone and one ipad. I recall that the with the ipad he said it was the perfect size and didn’t need alternatives or it would become less functional.
Then he died and the ipad mini was released, as well as the iphone 5c.
In 2012, the year following the iphone 5c and the year of the ipad mini apple lost its global market lead to android.
They diluted the product and confused the market of loyalists and general consumers by releasing multiple versions of their main product and if you ask me, thats when the cracks started to show.
Apple havent had a majority of the global market share for years now.
It’s one thing to make a tool accomplish a task.
It’s another thing to beat the engineers until grandma can operate the tool.
I didn’t like the guy either, and found it funny that his own bullshit killed him in the end, but he did add “value”.
and found it funny that his own bullshit killed him in the end
Which is also what all those people credit him for, the kind of thinking that gets you killed by choosing “alternative medicine” over science. Apple devices make that seem to be a valid approach to the world.
It beats me how they don’t see the irony.
I listened to an interview with Scott Forestall several years back and he discusses the meeting he was in where Steve Jobs basically gave them the idea for the iPhone. He had seen the multi-touch displays, initially just used for very large displays, and also was seeing mobile phones take off at the same time. He was the one who put those two together and told the team to work on it. Sure, the product managers and designers came up with the details of the product and engineers figured out the tech to support it, but without that initial idea and leadership’s support to expend resources on building it, it may not have happened.
There are a lot of companies with bad uninspiring leadership that just ship what everyone else is shipping. Apple under Steve Jobs was trying to innovate.
I mean, certainly he gets more credit than deserved. But I find it hard to deny the major impact he had. When he was hired back as CEO in the late 90s, Apple already had talented engineers, but there was no coherence or direction in what they were working on, and the next gen OS was never going to happen. Back then, CEO Michael Dell was asked what he’d do if he were in charge of Apple and he said he’d shut it down. Apple was a punching bag in the industry.
Jobs immediately made radical changes at the company, eliminating most of their product line which was superfluous and confusing, shutting down software projects that were “neat” but didn’t fit into a vision, putting them on the path to release OS X (which his company had envisioned and developed the basis for while he was away from Apple), changing their marketing strategy, making the most clear-cut product line I’d ever seen, and turning conference keynotes into must-see TV. And in addition to that he pushed Apple towards the iMac, the iPod and the music store, and the iPhone.
It took amazing engineers and a lot of work and pain to actually deliver these products. And Jobs does get more credit than deserved. But I think he does deserve a whole lot of credit.
The amount of credit people give Steve Jobs is such a kick to the nuts to all the engineers that designed those products
Try to lead an engineering team and make them all pull the same way and create a high quality, cohesive offering. It’s not as simple as you think. Good engineers should be recognized, but so should actual good leadership and technical vision. Steve’s visions may not always have been hits (and he often struggled with pricing) but it’s undeniable he had vision.
Steve Jobs was a piece of shit human being who contributed nothing to technology.
That said, he was a hell of a skilled bullshitter/marketer. Most people fucking looooove to be bullshitted, and Americans more than most.
It’s why we elect virtually no wonks/technocrats, even though thats who we should elect almost exclusively. We’d rather some snake oil motherfucker sell us on magical lies while telling us we’re pretty.
I’ve never complimented, or defended Steve Jobs before, because he was a grade A piece of shit…but, Steve Jobs transformed technology precisely because he was a phenomenal salesman, with a great eye for technical talent.
Just because he wasn’t an engineer, doesn’t change the fact that he forged Apple into what it became, and that absolutely contributed to modern technology - for better, and worse.
Just because he wasn’t an engineer, doesn’t change the fact that he forged Apple into what it became,
I think the big complaint about Jobs is not the lack of engineering skills, but that he got where he did through deception, taking advantage of people, and often treating folks like garbage. Many of us view him as unworthy of celebrating, because the ends don’t justify the means.
(There’s also the fact that what Apple became was not all good, but perhaps that’s a separate discussion.)
Steve Jobs could sell his turds to the Apple fanboys, and they would eat it up.
Doesn’t mean what he sold is some culinary dish or he a master chef. Just that he could sell them whatever he wants, no matter what it was. Whether it was technology or not.
I think marketers should get to take credit for ad campaigns they create, and engineers should get to take credit for technology they create.
Capitalists just want to take the credit for what others do. Societal leeches. I don’t buy into their false narrative that providing the means of production they hoard out of greed means they deserve most to all of the credit for what they permit talented people to engineer and produce by the swear of their brow and the migraines of their solutions.
We should be rewarding the Teslas of the world for what they invent, and punishing the Edisons that would claim other’s inventions as their own. But we suck, so we won’t.
Moving goalpost?
You said he didn’t contribute to technology, so I pointed out that he’s responsible for Apple becoming what it became, which itself transformed technology.
Now, you’re saying he shouldn’t get technical credit for…making the iPhone?
Okay…I never said he should…but it you want to go down that path, he was very hands-on with in the design processes for two of their most pivotal products: the iMac and iPod.
Again, he was a grade-A douche bag, who died a fucking hilariously stupid death, but that doesn’t erase, or override his impact.
After listening to the recent Behind the Bastards episode on him, yeah absolutely. It’s amazing his legacy isn’t judged more harshly.
He’s one of those people who died at the right time to preserve their own legacies, before public reckonings for non illegal bad behavior became common.
It’s amazing his legacy isn’t judged more harshly.
Have you read the rest of this thread?
It’s also partially because any decent engineer/technocrat both lacks sufficient charisma and cash flow, and more importantly looks at public service and says “there’s no reliable way I can keep my morals and make a difference there.” As an engineer myself, I can’t imagine dealing with the general public. Choosing the correct, logical path will never win over people who put opinions and faith/feelings over reasoning and science. We’ve seen it time and time again and I’m not going to bang my head against that wall.
Instead I help friends and family, contribute to open source and projects I believe in and be the change I want to see in the world. Trying to do that as an elected official would foster insanity and pushback from those who don’t care and only want their side to win, regardless of the overall outcome.
Also: yes SJ was a POS, but he was a POS with charisma, a plan, and smart enough to surround himself with people who could make his ideas happen… and then micromanage them.
who contributed nothing to technology.
If it wasn’t for jobs Wozniak would still be putting breadboards together in his garage. We have no idea what the personal computer ecosystem would have looked like without the apple 2. He gets a lot more credit than he deserves sometimes but the idea that he contributed nothing is absurd. If he had contributed nothing you wouldn’t know his name.
Jobs was the fucking cracks. The reason why zoomers have no fucking idea where their files are on their computer are because of the shitty attitude instilled into iphones/ipods.
He started the entire fucking enshittification trend and everyone ate his asshole like peaches.
I agree. I had to explain to a younger family member today that when I say “open notepad”, I meant the application that’s been on every Windows version since they were born, not to Google “notepad”
Gave me a crisis that people know so little of what would have been considered basic computer usage a while back.
If it makes you feel better I gave my 16 year old daughter a laptop with a fresh Debian install and she’s figuring out things on her own without asking for help. Customizing it and making it do what she wants.
I just thought she would watch YouTube videos on it and be content. Instead she’s talking about the nuance of installing programs on it, and how different it is from Windows.
Not all hope is lost.
There’s an xkcd for everything
Careful, or she’ll be running nixOS in a month or two
You can extend this argument to saying everyone should master the command line. They’re all interfaces. There’s no “right way” to use a computer.
Jobs turned the computer into a product used by everyday people who don’t give a shit about how it works, and that’s fine. That’s empowering because it lowers the barrier to entry.
That said, we’ve been in a much worse “eternal September” since the iPhone shipped.
They’re all interfaces
My files are in a magic place is not a fucking interface.
Can you expand a bit more on this? What makes it not an interface?
I am an android and windows person (would switch to Linux in a heartbeat if my CAD worked on there) and pretty tech savvy, even run my own servers. So I hate the fact that things are getting so dumbed down but I can’t understand why it’s just an interface would be not true.
Your files are in a magic place, directories don’t actually exist they’re a hierarchy we developed to meet the traditional concepts of a 20th century office. Tags and searching are just as valid.
Apple managed to capture lightning in a bottle, twice. First by making a better Walkman, and then again by making that device a phone with internet access. They were able to leverage that success to revitalize their computer hardware business and act as a platform for selling accessories, and all of that made them very successful.
But the stock market doesn’t care about past success, it cares about growth, and without a major new, or buzz worthy product, investors might start to turn against Apple. Problem is, they have ridden the iPod horse about as far as it can go. They tried putting wheels on it, but that failed, and the jury is still out on whether tying one to your face will work out or not.
It’s almost like… endless growth is unsustainable.
Edit: Downvoted by a shareholder lol
“What if we just doubled the price?” - some genius executive that never created a damn thing in their life
That only works for housing and healthcare.
big part of apple’s success is that it successfully establishes itself as a status symbol - it is for a lot of people what car was for generation of their parents and grandparents.
so there will definitely be a clientele for that two times expensive whatever. some people will buy it just to show others they can afford it, same reason why people were buying overpriced cars.
Yep. Doesn’t matter how healthy or stable a company is… when infinite growth is no longer feasible, investors would rather pick the bones clean than let it be.
APPL is second only to MSFT by market cap. So far, the stock market doesn’t care.
Yeah, but investors really don’t care about the price of a stock, they care about how much the price moves once they own it.
It’s the inherent problem with publicly owned companies. Even if you perfected a mode of profit, unless you improve upon perfection next quarter you’re in hot shit.
You can only squeeze so much profit out of any one gimmick, after that the only way to mimic growth is by cutting labour costs, and eventually diverting investment funding into profit for shareholders.
Not necessarily. Investors also care about dividends. Those tend to be the people who hold on long term. Blue chips, as a class of stock, are all about companies that don’t make big moves in price and pay out in dividends. They’re older companies that have built their product line, and while they still do R&D on new ones, they only do that to make sure they don’t get left behind.
Idk, more and more people are switching to mac and ditching windows. If their m1 thing continues being successful they’re going to have a more severe monopoly than Microsoft ever did. It’s one thing to patch Microsoft’s half ass attempts to embrace extend destroy Linux but that isn’t going to work out as well anymore once all the mainstream stuff is quarantined to an entire different cpu architecture and computers that no longer use off the shelf parts.
Luckily the only software they really have right now that Linux doesn’t is that s tier video editor and then no one wants to use their stupid Metal graphic acceleration so games are going to have a hard time taking off as well. Too bad most people think “command lines are too hard”.
The common person is going to lose access to computers as we know them today if Apple wins. If it gets to the point where the only modem mainstream systems left are M1 macs, everything computer related is going to get 10x as expensive. $1000 for a potato ass MacBook Air is already obnoxious but when that’s the only choice, that potato ass MacBook Air is going to cost $10k.
People aren’t ditching Windows. They’re ditching non-Apple laptops that happen to have Windows.
Cause honestly laptop offerings are sucky one way or another these days.
It’s shocking how bad the competition is in the laptop space. There are good options, but none of them have the great battery life, great screen, performance, and good trackpad all in one device. The margins being so low probably don’t help the situation. Developing for Windows native is meh edging on bad, so most apps these days are written in Electron or Qt and available on whatever other platform you use. The ship won’t sink because of Windows, it’ll sink because people aren’t buying the hardware that has Windows.
Idk if I agree with this. I feel like 1000 goes further for a Mac than 1000 on on an equivalent PC, least as far as user experience goes. Windows arm isn’t there yet as far as support from vendors goes. With apple everyone hopped on the train fast , it was a smooth transition for average workflows. It will be faster and/or more efficient. They certainly have their problems , mainly the base storage , and display limitations but at least they’re fixing the latter of the two.
Not everyone wants to navigate a computer with a terminal. Hell , apple silicon Mac’s have outperformed Mac’s that cost 3 times the amount. I think you overestimate the need of a more powerful laptop in that space. The real difference is that Mac has N AppStore and large enough dev base that unless it’s some obscure windows specific software or games , the app likely exists on Mac. Word , Spotify , adobe adobe apps , he’ll even epic has software coming to Macs for hospitals.
If the price just gets so absurd , the common person will just use cheaper and or older alternatives. But it’s not like apple hasn’t been competing in the mid to low range for iPhones. M1 Mac’s are still excellent deals to buy 3 years later and eventually they can offer Macs at a lower price point. They aren’t stupid enough to isolate the common man when other options will always exist
by making that device a phone with internet access.
Fuck you WAP phones existed. Blackberries existed.
