Ms. Soussana, 40, is the first Israeli to speak publicly about being sexually assaulted during captivity after the Hamas-led raid on southern Israel. In her interviews with The Times, conducted mostly in English, she provided extensive details of sexual and other violence she suffered during a 55-day ordeal.
Ms. Soussana’s personal account of her experience in captivity is consistent with what she told two doctors and a social worker less than 24 hours after she was freed on Nov. 30. Their reports about her account state the nature of the sexual act; The Times agreed not to disclose the specifics.
. . .
For months, Hamas and its supporters have denied that its members sexually abused people in captivity or during the Oct. 7 terrorist attack. This month, a United Nations report said that there was “clear and convincing information” that some hostages had suffered sexual violence and there were “reasonable grounds” to believe sexual violence occurred during the raid, while acknowledging the “challenges and limitations” of examining the issue.
Now, write an individual article for each child starved to death or bombed by Israel. I can’t muster the energy to care about a single rape in the middle of a genocide.
We have rape kits in Texas that have gone untested for over a decade. If rape was important to the people enacting justice, we have a long list to get through before we can start worrying about rapes in warzones.
But justice isn’t the intent behind articles like this. They want to justify the genocide with individual crimes.
That’s bullshit. There are many news articles literally every single day about the civilians killed in Gaza. Meanwhile, on Lemmy, you have people still denying that Hamas sexually tortured women captured on October 7. Sorry it doesn’t fit your narrative.
In my opinion, there is a huge difference between civilian collateral damage during a military operation and the use of rape as a weapon of war. We xan argue about how much force Israel is using and whether X amount of collateral damage is acceptable. But gratuitously raping people has no legitimate purpose, military or otherwise. It serves to sow terror and incite retaliation, which is why Hamas did it.
civilian collateral damage
Nazis can fuck off.
This is exactly what I’m calling out, using individual crimes to justify genocide.
You won’t even accurately address the crimes because they are so heinous.
We are talking about genocide. Starving children is in no way a military operation so you can suck that lie back up your ass.
Cutting off aid to Gaza in order to starve out the militants hiding in the civilian population is at least a plausible justification. Again, we can debate whether Israel has taken it too far, but using siege tactics doesn’t make someone a Nazi. Nice try.
But what is your justification for raping people?
Neither rape nor civilian murder, or ‘collateral damage’ as you put it, is tolerable. But minimising the actual deaths and lifelong physical casualties, rather than just rape, of hundreds of people to just ‘collateral damage’ as though you would react in the exact same way if Hamas was bombing Israeli hospitals and schools, is [insert disparaging word here].
Unintended casualties is an unavoidable side effect of urban combat. Use your brain.
My point is that bombing a building that you believe contains soldiers sometimes also causes civilian deaths. We can debate whether sufficient care was taken, but the justification is that the army believes that enemy soldiers were present. Same with cutting off aid shipments. We can debate whether Israel has gone too far in restricting humanitarian aid, but the justification is that Israel doesn’t want supplies diverted for use by Hamas. What exactly is the justification for raping people?
The point is that it is not collateral damage. The murdering of the civilian Arab population is the point of the IDF operations in Gaza.
There isn’t a single rational person here who would argue that what Hamas has done and is doing is not horrifying and awful. But Hamas is exactly who Netanyahu wanted as the adversary in Gaza. He has set this stage very carefully in order to bring about the exact scenario that is being played out in Israel and Gaza right now.
You make a great point about Netanyahu. He’s a terrible person. But he didn’t start Hamas or write their charter for them, nor did he create the Iranian theocracy or force them to create and support terrorist proxy groups. Netanyahu is an opportunist. He took advantage of an existing situation and made it worse.
Also, unfortunately, there are plenty of people on Lemmy who do rationalize Hamas’s actions as a justified “lashing out” by the victims. I don’t buy that argument for a second. No society is entirely just and history certainly isn’t fair, but that doesn’t mean we should allow murder, rape, and torture as a response. The armchair revolutionaries on Lemmy disagree. What they don’t realize is that most real revolutions look less like George Washington crossing the Potomac or Ukraine’s Maidan revolution and more like Mao’s Cultural Revolution.
I don’t agree with this comment. Both of those acts are fucking awful. Anyone to be raped must be an awful experience and extremely traumatic. I understand that some who is raped are not dead, but still a vile act.
If you truly believed this, you would be offended by the political use of rape to justify the genocide of children.
You don’t want to engage what my comment actually said, the fact that a single rape in the face of genocide does not an article make.
My comment was about the focus on this crime as an individual act justifying genocide and you want to refocus back to the singular act while not really addressing the editorializing of NYT.
You are playing the game the genocidal people want you to play instead of engaging this propoganda meaningfully.
You should read that comment again. They aren’t arguing that rape is not a vile act. They are saying that the people who are using this woman’s horrifying experience as propaganda to justify murdering tens of thousands of people don’t actually care about her suffering, they only care about pushing their agenda of Arab extermination. It is literally what the Nazis in Germany did to the Jews 80 years ago.
Believe whatever you want in the privacy of your own mind, but this whole conflict wouldn’t be happening if some crazy religious people hadn’t stolen lots of land in the first place, and then persecuted the remaining inhabitants.
The “crazy religious people” and “who the land belongs to” switches around a lot depending on what year you pick as a baseline - you’re gonna have to be more specific.
Why would you pick any year besides the one which had original people living there as a baseline? I thought they must have been referring to the millenia long holy war over the land, started when the Jews first conquered the land from its previous inhabitants millenia ago. Then the Muslims came and settled there in recent history, and then the Jews tried to take it back. And now both sides are fighting for all of it. (I wouldn’t say ‘crazy’, but definitely mislead) religious people are the cause of the conflict, on both sides.
I thought they must have been referring to the millenia long holy war over the land, started when the Jews first conquered the land from its previous inhabitants millenia ago. Then the Muslims came and settled there in recent history, and then the Jews tried to take it bac
What millennia long holy war? Jews conquered large parts of Palestine (not all of it AFAIK), settled there, then (omitting some stuff) the Romans kicked many of them out of there. Then Muslims conquered the region, and that ended that. While some Muslims settled in Palestine (like they did in their other territories) the idea that the original inhabitants are gone and the people living in Palestine now are descended from Arabs is a myth.
Edit: The current conflict started in 1917 and any attempt to make it look more complex by tying it to the Jews’ debacle with the Romans is either ignorant or made in bad faith to both sides the conflict.
Believe whatever you want in the privacy of your own mind, but the land wasn’t stolen and the persecution was perpetuated mutually.
Believe whatever you want in the privacy of your own mind, but the land *was stolen. Lay off Fox and Friends for a bit.
NYT is such an serious outlet. They NEVER lied about things. They never lied about Gaddafi, Hussein, Assad, Putin, WMDs, war on terror, war on drugs, China, Venezuela, Nicarágua, México, Jamaica, Yugoslavia, Soviet Union, Julian Assange, Snowden. Never!
We also don’t call Nazis victims when they face retaliation for their crimes against humanity either.
We also generally don’t condone retaliation against civilians for the actions of the government. We didn’t punish all Germans for what the Nazis did. Let’s not punish civilians for what Israel’s doing.
Otherwise? You’re closer to those Nazis than not.
I guarantee some of these deniers were saying “believe all women” or “believe all victims” before.
Okay I see what you mean but while I’d like them to be lying as much as the next person this one is pretty damning.
Well. This is pretty significant. I would say it’s rather damning evidence that considerably raises the bar to doubt these claims.
There’s a lot I could say here. Hamas is a bunch reprehensible fucks. It’s disappointing that we needed concrete evidence because of how untrustworthy the IDF is. But I think the most salient and important point here is that there is no “good guy” or “right side” among the war combatants. It’s awful people fighting awful people. Hamas and the IDF both deserve nothing but contempt and scorn, and both should be dismantled for their crimes against humanity.
I’ve tried to be very precise with my wording because none of what I just said applies to the Palestinian nor Israeli people. The civilians and innocent people are caught between two legions of hell and are the ones paying the price. The kidnapped and tortured Israelis, the Palestinian people – both of them are suffering at the hands of both Hamas and the Israeli government.
Neither of them care about the civilians. They use them as lambs for sacrifice and control the flow of information to manufacture hate and support for the war. It’s become readily apparent that the IDF and Hamas just want to keep fighting, and they’re manipulating the civilians to support them. If both peoples were getting the true, unfiltered information – sights of dying Palestinian children, demolished buildings, accounts of Israeli hostages – I think they’d be appalled at what “their side” is doing.
I really hope the majority would be appalled, because there can’t be any peace until they recognize their shared suffering and humanity. And to be clear, the majority of suffering is clearly inflicted on the Palestinians.
Edit: I’m not angry at the downvotes but damn am I disappointed. You’d think “fuck the people genociding others and fuck the people taking hostages” would be an uncontroversial position, but here we are.
Reason this is controversial is because hamas is literally the same thing as IDF, bibi funded it and that much genocide also radicalized a shit ton of people, hamas is an asset of Israel, they shouldn’t be equated to palestine in anyway
This exact story will now be used to justify all the war crimes Israel has been doing, when hamas does something, Israel should be the one held accountable, not Palestine, there are no ‘two sides’, its only one side continuously killing the innocent
Hamas is not the same as israel. The difference in civilian and especially child casualties says enough.
Israel is far far worse than Hamas.
I don’t mean same in that sense, same as in that they are literally the same thing, kinda like different companies operating under one larger one (Netanyahu)
No disagreement here really. This doesn’t justify Israel’s war crimes at all. Whether Hamas is effectively the same as the IDF or not, they’re a bunch of radicalized shitheads who do not in any way represent the Palestinians. They’re closer to ruling dictators than they are champions of the people.
You are right, but when you make the both sides bad argument, the pro genocide have an excuse ‘Oh hamas bad as well’ but the thing is the very reason hamas exists is because of Israel, and then according to me alteast Israel should be held equally accountable
But I think the most salient and important point here is that there is no “good guy” or “right side” among the war combatants. It’s awful people fighting awful people.
Edit: Turns out I forgot to actually write the comment so here goes:
Hamas aren’t good people, but the idea they’re even comparable to the IDF is just wrong. Hamas at least has a cause they’re fighting for, and have a real, valid reason for taking hostages (namely that without hostages post-war Gaza is fucked) (not saying they’re allowed to abuse them that’s just fucked up). And have the basic decency not to shoot children.
Natives scalped Americans killing them. ANC killed civilians during their fight against Apartheid.
Don’t look up what the Haitians did for their freedom.
The illusion that these people fought their oppressors without committing their own war crimes is some Hollywood shit.
Killing people actively attacking you and murdering slaveowners is a far cry from kidnapping and raping civilians. I also would not say Hamas is a liberation group exactly, considering how they suppress any Palestinian dissent and steal charity meant for the Palestinian people.
A war crime is a war crime. The whole reason I make a distinction between Hamas and the Palestinian people is because the latter aren’t raping captives. The vast majority just want to live in peace.
Violent rebellion against oppressors is completely justified. Violence against civilians is not. Think about this woman in the article for instance. Would you consider it acceptable if she killed innocent Palestinians in the process of taking revenge on her former captors? What then about the family of the dead innocent Palestinians?
The IDF is absolutely worse. Let me make that clear. And I’m not terribly troubled by Hamas fighting them. Let the two of them wipe each other out. What bothers me is when the IDF kills innocent people in the process, and Hamas tortures innocent people in the process. Neither side’s sins justify the other’s.
I agree that the IDF is far worse, and it’s not my intent to say they’re the same as Hamas. I’m just saying both are bad, even if one is clearly worse.
But I also wouldn’t say Hamas has a cause worth fighting for exactly. They aren’t a Palestinian liberation army of freedom fighters. Their leaders are a bunch of rich fucks in the UAE and they expressly wanted active violence to start once more. They hoard supplies and steal charity meant for Palestinians. And they brutally suppress any Palestinian protest to their rule.
They still aren’t as bad as the IDF, but they’re not a group worth championing.
They’re everything you said, and also freedom fighters, at least at the present stage. They have the goal of a Palestine free from Israel occupation and aggression and take real action to make that happen. That’s pretty much what the bar for being a freedom fighter is, and doesn’t preclude them from being bad people otherwise.
and they expressly wanted active violence to start once more.
TBF in the case of Palestine active violence is the only realistic path to peace. Not via a military victory, but to gather the international community’s attention and lose Israel international support. The status quo where Israel one-sidedly blockades and airstrikes Gaza isn’t a desirable situation for Palestinians, because it’s become normal. It doesn’t make the news, spread the Palestinian cause or threaten presidents’ reelection campaigns. You’ll see this in the fact that while Gaza tends to take the forefront in news coverage of the conflict, the West Bank usually takes a backseat and even now is covered as an accessory to the situation in Gaza, because the West Bank doesn’t have much active violence.
What I wanna say is: They want active violence because it works. There’s no path to peace without violence when the other side is a country like Israel. The IRA, ANC and Civil Rights Movement (where what pushed the CRA over the edge was riots following MLK’s death), among others, have thoroughly proven this.
Do you think civilian casualties, looting, and rape conducted by the Allies is excusable?
There is very clearly a worse side. The IDF is unequivocally worse and committing genocide. They have caused several degrees of magnitude more people to suffer. That does not mean however that Hamas hasn’t caused people to suffer either. Condemning all violent acts doesn’t mean we’re saying both sides are the same. You can acknowledge fault in two groups simultaneously, and pursue and peace and justice for both of their victims.
i noticed most lemmey users here exhibit the same kind of behaviour before the exodus from reddit.
very left leaning and wouldn’t hesitate to employ cancel culture if facts don’t fit their narratives.
at least there are sane usera like yourself have clearly drawn the line that condemning hamas doesn’t equate condemning the palestinians.
evidence have shown,if you condemn hamas,somehow or rather that’s Israel’s fault and anyone who does it is dehumanising palestinans,never mind the fact that there were palestinians celebrating the death of innocents and giving out sweets to children.
never mind the fact that there were palestinians celebrating the death of innocents and giving out sweets to children.
This is incorrect. Hamas told people that a prison was liberated, and that’s why they were celebrating. They had no idea that Hamas had killed innocent people like that.
Think about it – where does information in Gaza come from? A lot of it is coming from Hamas itself. They’re going to make themselves look good and lie about what’s actually going on.
this is the first i am hearing if this.
mind sharing where you got that info from??
Well the problem is one is the occupier and the one is the occupied. And people talk as if Hamas is the Palestinians problem and that it all started October 7th.
Treat people and respect them as humans, don’t put them in open-air prisons, and divide people into an apartheid system, then maybe you won’t have any terrorist attacks and/or rapes.
Hamas is not the same thing as Palestinians. The majority of Palestinians want peace and aren’t kidnapping and torturing Israelis.
I completely agree that the Palestinians are being appallingly treated and experiencing apartheid. But they haven’t turned to violence. Hamas would like to claim they’re freedom fighters, but they stockpile supplies for themselves and steal charity meant for the people. They aren’t the good guys here. The good guys are the ones being bombed and massacred.
Hamas was elected to government in Gaza in one of the few elections the occupier has allowed, and there are plenty of parts of Hamas which is not military, the Palestinians want freedom and peace, and resistance against the occupation is also fighting, or politics, be it PLO or Hamas.
When Hamas can’t harm the IDF, they harm the innocent, of both Palestinians and Israelis.
This is not a call only of Israeli women, but a call of every women to be possibly be near these savage people.
