…until it is someone with narcissistic personality disorder, psychopathy and sociopathy, but mostly NPD.
EDIT: There seems to be some misunderstandings about this post. It is not an attack on this community or the users here, it’s just a general vent I have for the type of people that claim to be anti-ableist until it is something they don’t like.
Hey y’all, since this is a sensitive topic and there’s been a lot of discussion which involved big emotions, I wanted to just drop by and assure the community that we’re aware this thread exists and that some of the discussion here can be uncomfortable. At least at this point in time, I don’t personally feel the need to step into any of these conversations to intervene, because I believe that the community has managed to have a meaningful discussion over a really difficult topic.
With that being said, there are some big emotions in this thread and some of the content may trigger you, especially if you’ve suffered abuse from people struggling with mental disorders or you have a mental disorder that is heavily stigmatized. There are strong statements on both sides of the field here, and I personally think leaving them up is healthier for a nuanced understanding of how much abuse can destroy someone’s life as well as how much assumptions about behavior can be deeply hurtful to experience as well.
However, if you do see behavior in here that is clearly not nice behavior and you believe that one party is instigating please still go ahead and report it. We’re not all seeing and all knowing and we don’t want this post to go off the rails either. Thanks! 💜
I mean, there’s support and then there’s enabling. Not all things that ND people do are good, either for them or those around them. We as a community don’t act like it’s ok for Autistic people to go around grabbing women’s tits “cause they don’t understand social conventions” (though I’ve absolutely come across this argument before, which infuriated me), why would we act like it’s ok for NPD people to manipulate and emotionally abuse those around them “cause it’s just the way they are”? The goal is to support them in a way that limits harm: both the harm that comes to them from outside, and the harm they can do to others.
This is the most NPD post ever trying to make this comparison. People with disabilities or mental disorders that hurt people when unmanaged SHOULD be treated differently. No it’s not the same thing as ensuring blind or people in wheel chairs can get around without assistance or making sure people with autism get job opportunities.
Yeah, we suspect my sister is either Borderline or NPD. This is exactly the post she might make equating acceptance for neurodivergent personalities with her own traits that actively hurts others.
And it’s to the point that many posters fell for it. I saw this thread much earlier and just couldn’t view this as a good-faith statement to even start from - so I didn’t engage.
Kinda wish the rest of the fediverse didn’t engage with it - I certainly don’t view it as an “important conversation” it’s laughably manufactured and in bad faith. I have a sense that Beehaw’s admin response artificially inflated the importance of this as well.
Quick question, who in the heck is benefiting from this discussion? To me it looks like the trolls are getting the most out of it.
The original post is playing the victim card. A classic manipulative tactic.
Other people engaged because that’s how manipulation works. I almost engaged before I recognized that I was being manipulated into defending a position on a premise I don’t even agree with.
Once you recognize the patterns of manipulative behaviour it becomes easier to stop yourself from engaging. Manipulative people depend on people who can’t identify the bullshit.
The other reply to me was also clearly someone trying to manipulate me by saying I say/think/implied things that I didnt. Always best not to engage.
NPD doesn’t cause abusive behaviour. That’s a made up stereotype.
Also why are you saying this post is bad because “it’s the most NPD post ever”? Do you think people with NPD are bad?
What kind of response are you expecting? Or is this just a rant/vent? I don’t agree with your statement entirely, many people would also want people with NPD, psychopathy or sociopathy to get support. The problem, however, is that it is really hard for most to give people with strong narcissistic or manipulative traits the support they need. Similarly, I also have compassion with pedophiles and wish them the support they need. But obviously I don’t want them to be enabled (or even allowed) to follow their sexuality. Same goes for people with narcissistic and manipulative traits. I want them to get support but not be enabled or allowed to hurt or manipulate others.
Recently I stumbled upon this podcast called “The Bright Sessions” where they basically envision neurodivergent people and/or people with mental disorders as having superhuman powers. There also is a character that might fall into your description of people who are not treated with compassion. The podcast really explores what that means and how compassion can look like with a person like that.
ETA: and this comes from a person who has been traumatized over decades by various people with strong narcissistic traits.
Recently I stumbled upon this podcast called “The Bright Sessions” where they basically envision neurodivergent people and/or people with mental disorders as having superhuman powers.
Unrelated to this thread, but Julia Morizawa (Dr. Bright) has a character which plays a big part in the later episodes of another great podcast called The Amelia Project, which is a lovely, darkly humourous, and oftentimes poignant little series. Actually, her voice is in every episode from the beginning, but her character doesn’t actually come into play until a little later.
NPD doesn’t cause manipulation. And people with NPD aren’t more likely to abuse others.
Do you have any references to back up this claim? From personal experience I most strongly disagree with your statement. I have suffered all my life from narcissistic people and even many years of therapy were not sufficient to surpass my childhood trauma.
Also, if you don’t want to take a subjective perspective there is really a looot of research that shows how abusive people with NPD are.
I could go on citing studies on this. I wonder what counter-evidence you’ll be able to produce.
Lack of empathy isn’t abuse. Empathy is a private, personal feeling. Other people’s feelings are not abuse. Neurotypical society encourages a toxic dynamic where you must feel certain ways about other people in your own head, or you are a so-called abuser. A person who is not feeling affective empathy is perfectly capable of cognitive empathy and of practicing ethics and morality. Affective empathy is a feeling. Cognitive empathy is knowledge. Ethics and morality are theories and behaviours. And I can report from my own experiences and those of other people living with NPD, that the reason we have lower empathy on average is that we can choose whether to have empathy. We are perfectly capable of feeling the feelings of others, but we can also block that feeling when it’s irrelevant. We can feel and understand others’ feelings in order to develop our sense of ethics, but we can turn it off when it’s a hindrance. If a man is drunk and shouting at me for being trans, I don’t want to feel empathy for his hatred of me. I turn my empathy off. If I’m talking to a woman who had a miscarriage, I can turn my empathy off while still showing sympathy. I know miscarriages are bad, I know how horrible they feel, I just don’t want to also feel that way. The neurotypical demand that everyone feel empathy at all is unreasonable. Neurotypicals say “People with NPD don’t choose to suffer when I feel bad. That’s abuse”. I disagree. And I don’t believe neurotypicals feel empathy at all times either. Their empathy shuts off when it’s important. pwNPD just have more control, do it more often. There’s nothing wrong with that. Hyperempathy is a symptom associated with disorders like BPD and sometimes even NPD, and it’s a lot worse than selective empathy. People with hyperempathy can’t function when someone is upset. They sometimes end up covering over and ignoring conflicts and being unable to resolve them because it hurts too much to think about a problem. That’s toxic. Yes, selective empathy can be used to inflict harm with fewer consequences, but so can a kitchen knife, and people who cook are not evil abusers. Nor are people living with NPD. And if lack of empathy made us abusers, then people with autism would be as well. They are not, and we are not.
That’s my response to the first link you showed. As you can see, I’ve thought a whole lot about this topic and have very strong feelings. From my point of view, this is someone saying “Your private thoughts are different from other people’s. That’s abuse!” You can see why this triggers me. I think it’s best now if I calm down, rather than discussing all the links you posted. You are free to discuss what I’ve said, and if I’m calm enough I’ll try to answer. I’d like to convince you of my point of view, at least with empathy. I am not sure I have the wherewithal to discuss everything you’ve linked.
As someone with a NPD parent I don’t know if I could agree with you. But yeah, me and my siblings might not be on the good statistics.
One of my parents is a woman. And she was an abusive woman. But do I hate women? No. That’s because I understand that my personal experiences aren’t always indicative of the state of the larger world. Now, you probably think the idea of hating women because of an abusive woman parent is ridiculous, and you’re right. It’s ridiculous because you and I have met many women, and we know that most women aren’t abusive. I have also met many people living with NPD, and that’s why I know thinking people who suffer from NPD are abusive is ridiculous. But if you’ve never been to an NPD support group, you probably haven’t met a lot of pwNPD, and you probably don’t have the directly experienced perspective to instinctively understand what I do. Which is why it’s important for everyone to understand the limits of our own experience.
The problem is that people with those disorders are the ones most likely to be the abusers. They are also the least likely to seek out help. There’s a reason it’s called “The Dark Triad”.
