An Australian museum excluded men from an exhibit to highlight misogyny. A man sued for access and won.
Archived version: https://archive.ph/mkwF8
I’m not really a fan of the whole “we’ll be intolerant so you know what it feels like” but it’s also the only way I can really know what it feels like as a white man from a middle class family. I’m on the fence on this one.
That’s easy.
For starters:
Go to China. Go to the middle east. Go to Zimbabwe. Go to the wrong parts of Brazil or South Africa.
Hell, go to Northern Ireland.
It’s an idiotic thing to state that white people are not and have never been oppressed.
Go to the wrong parts of Brazil or South Africa.
What do you you mean “wrong parts”? 🤨
It’s an idiotic thing to state that white people are not and have never been oppressed.
White (an invented and morphose social category predicated on anti-Blackness) people have never been oppressed for being white.
White (an invented and morphose social category predicated on anti-Blackness) people have never been oppressed for being white.
Imagine actually believing this.
I mean, overwhelmingly people aren’t racially discriminated against for being white so I’m not sure what it is you’re trying to back up.
Sure it happens. The one that’s closest to home for me in that list is Northern Ireland. White Catholics here were abused, but it was by white people so nothing to do with the colour of their skin. Honestly such a terrible example with absolutely no understanding for historical context.
I’ve spent non-trivial time in the Middle East. Sure I’m not at the same social class as Arabs there but I was sure fucking glad I wasn’t brown.
China, wot? Yeah people stare at me but nobody was nasty. If anything I was a novelty.
White people in South Africa were gonna get what they were gonna get in a post apartheid world where they pillaged and oppressed until quite recently. That doesn’t make it right but it makes it inevitable.
They’re all very poorly thought out, edge case examples with the exception of Zimbabwe unless I’m missing others that I’m not aware of.
You don’t need to know what it feels like. Trying to fight intolerance with intolerance isn’t successful.
You don’t need to know what it feels like.
no, but it can help
Trying to fight intolerance with intolerance isn’t successful.
blanket statements like this are rarely helpful or true
I think downvoters have forgotten the paradox of tolerance. That said, intolerance should be applied at the individual level (ie don’t tolerate a nazi because they are a nazi), not by group (like the scenario this thread is about did).
The more interesting thing to me is… They were modeling a thing that was popular in the 60s, according to the article. It’s an art display to protest something from 60+ years ago. A lot of the people who would go to such an exhibit weren’t alive, and certainly weren’t adults at the time.
There are surely problems that women face today but I don’t see how this helps shine any light on that or does anything at all for it.
They should just make it a small art exhibit out front, then 2 bathrooms, the mens is normal, with some basic art, but the women’s bathroom has a bar and cocktail lounge and the extra amenities. Then the business wouldn’t be excluding men, it would just be providing them a different experience in the bathroom which I feel like they’d have a much better time defending in court. But it also seems like this whole thing was done as a form of activism and it looks like one of the intents is for this business to close down so they can be martyrs.
I’m not really an artsy type person, more of a logical minded person, so it really wouldn’t be something I would do. But as a logical thinker I’m good at coming up with creative logical solutions to puzzles. I’d be better as a consultant.
Protesting misogyny through misandry - what a fabulous idea! Next, how about a protest against childhood obesity by starving a couple of kids to death?
Doing a shitty thing to protest a different shitty thing only multiplies the amount of shit instead of reducing it…
While I agree with you in principle, the guy that took this to the courts is a giant dickhead.
I consider the court case to be part of the exhibit. Intentionally or not, the plaintiff is part of the exhibit; the judge, the ruling, and even your criticism.
The women who brought these cases against men’s clubs were similarly denigrated for ruining the “good thing” the clubs had going for them.
If you think men not being allowed to look at art is actually comparable to the systemic misogyny women have to deal with you’re exactly the type of person the piece is highlighting.
The problem is that this kind of approach doesn’t solve or work towards improving anything. Mysogynists are just going to double down if they’re treated this way, even if an art exhibit is miniscule compared to the other issues.
It’s the same as how incels are pushed further into extremism after all other groups exclude and push them away. Those people are looking for a community and a place to fit in, and if the only place that will take them is awful and negative they’ll settle there and radicalise. The goal should be to open a constructive discussion and change minds, not just throw more stuff onto the fire.
The goal should be to open a constructive discussion and change minds
You just explained how they don’t have a logical position, just a kneejerk reaction to having their behaviour pointed out - you are only fooling yourself if you think there’s a constructive discussion available. Grow up and make them fear physical retribution if they keep spreading such abhorrent views.
The velvet-clad lounge - which contains some of the museum’s most-acclaimed works, from Picasso to Sidney Nolan - has been open since 2020.
If the artist had opened an exhibit of her own work only to women, I could defend that as artistic expression. However, this is simply a museum being sexist and then saying “It’s just art bro!”
With that said, apparently the museum is privately funded. I tend to think that this ought to mean it can be sexist if that’s what the people running it want (as a matter of principle, not as a matter of Australian law).
I tend to think that this ought to mean it can be sexist if that’s what the people running it want
IDK, I’d see issues with a cafe saying ‘No colored people allowed’.
I (a white person) wouldn’t knowingly going into such a Cafe, but I still allow them to exist. It is a matter of defending - as much as possible - the right of others to do things I find stupid. There are lines, but I try to use them to cover as little as possible: all lines can be used against me.
To deny access to any one group on the basis of an immutable characteristic of their physical being is a dangerous precedent to set for a government. It just gives a license to discriminate against any out group. I believe you have a right to do whatever you want, so long as doing so does not violate the rights of others.
To take it to a logical extreme, would you defend the right to drink and drive, given that stupid people should be allowed to do stupid things, even if it is incredibly dangerous to the drinking party and everyone else around them? No? Then don’t tolerate the intolerance of others. That’s how the social contract frays.
So you’d be fine with a towns only hospital receiving a patient in the ER while the only doctor on the clock refuses to treat the patient based on them being part of a protected class? Or do we need to create a law that says doctors can’t discriminate but everyone else can?
I don’t mind other people doing things that are stupid. I do mind other people doing things that are harmful. The difficult part is finding where that line is, if and how to legislate it and what the implications are on other important societal values.
In this example of a cafe refusing to serve people based on race, I’m personally totally fine with that being illegal.
I feel like running a museum is a lot more like a form of expression than running a cafe is. “Who is the audience for art?” seems like a topic where a government-imposed “correct answer” is more of a problem than it would be if the topic were “Who eats a sandwich?”
The answer to “who the audience of art” is is a lot more inclusive than that of “who eats a sandwich.” Literally every human consumes art. It is probably one of the most fundamentally human things. Not every human eats sandwiches.
That said, if you’re allowed to exclude people by class (a price in entry) then obviously some amount of exclusion is allowed. Not that it should be allowed, but it is.
It’s the privately funding thing, I’m sure Australia has men’s clubs like the Eagles, Masonic, etc. My guess is that if they offered tickets to purchase, there would be the discrimination? You can’t sell something and not offer it to everyone. OTOH, that doesn’t make sense because we have timed tickets and members only tickets here in the US, do they have something like that in Australia?
I read in another thread that the women-only rule was an art installation and they were happy when the guy sued, because it created the publicity they were looking for.
The problem with letting private businesses discriminate is that it often leads to total discrimination. A single racist towing company would be a huge problem. A racist grocery store could be the only one in town. Sure you might not go to a racist bar, but what if the fire or police chief frequents that place?
You think it’s unheard of that a police officer can be a racist? Have you come here from an alternate timeline or something? If so can I come back with you?
Hardly, there’s a rich history of using police to enforce racism. It’s still happening today in some areas.
Under liberalism, the goal of the oppressed is to become the oppressor.
Idk how I feel about this. I will say however, any time I’ve ever seen feminist principles be applied exclusionary, it’s always additionally accompanied by TERF shit. It’s a very quick pipeline from “no boys allowed” to “no trans allowed”. The lines dividing can be so blurry… I don’t think it’s a good mindset.
From their website:
The lounge is a tremendously lavish space in our museum in which women can indulge in decadent nibbles, fancy tipples, and other ladylike pleasures—hosted and entertained by the fabulous butler. And as is always the case with Kirsha’s dinners and feasts, you are a participant in what she sees as the art itself, part of a living installation. Any and all ladies are welcome.
Any and all ladies doesn’t sound like they are excluding people that may not have been born female. It sounds, at least to me, that it includes said person group.
I’ll bring this up only once, because not only do I not want to deal with backlash, I also dont want to stand in the way of progress or hurt anyone who is trans, but: Notice how society mostly freaks out about Trans Women, and Trans Men are an afterthought in that outrage. Its because Misandry is playing a not insignificant part in this. A key thing about transphobes is they arent seeing Trans Women as Women, and its their ideas on how MEN are that are informing their vitrol. So you are seeing those two go hand in hand for a reason
Edit: Fuck it, I need to clarify: Trans Women are WOMEN, Trans Men are MEN