I’m getting a lot of ‘but my car is more convenient’ arguments lately, and I’m struggling to convey why that doesn’t make sense.
Specifically how to explain to people that: Sure, if you are able to drive, and can afford it, and your city is designed to, and subsidizes making it easy to drive and park, then it’s convenient. But if everyone does it then it quickly becomes a tragedy of the commons situation.
I thought of one analogy that is: It would be ‘more convenient’ if I just threw my trash out the window, but if we all started doing that then we’d quickly end up in a mess.
But I feel like that doesn’t quite get at the essence of it. Any other ideas?
Your car is more convenient because they designed it that way. Visit Europe and everyone’s like “get a eurail pass, it’s so convenient!” But here we don’t have the infrastructure so alternative transport sucks, because we decided to make the car, king, instead of building railway lines.
While I do hope Europe is years ahead of the USA, I don’t know any people who say it’s convenient to do a eurail pass. Where I live there are the same problems as in the USA, the car is 1,5-2 times quicker than public transport. That’s just too much wastes time to be bothered to go by public transport.
Depends on the types of commutes you do and where you are.
For kindergarden to work, for me, car and public is basically equal, but it is like 7km. If it is a carshare / rental car then I will end up slower because finding a spot to park is pain, this of course is negated if it were my car since Id have (paid btw at my last employer) employee parking.
It would of course be easier and faster to get the kinds to kindergarden via car, but this is a 15 min walking distance we are talking here.
There are tradeoffs, but ultimately I choose transit and just grab a rental if I actually need a car, which is rare. Mind you I live in the city and the moment I move to a house outside of the city I am getting a car.
I have to say I prefer transit, no stress, no thinking about times and routes, I can read a book, study or just meditate. Not to mention that the costs are sooo much lower. In the city I travel all month for 15 euros.
It is political at heart. You just can’t pit the “power of the consumer” against industry interests and expect an ideal outcome. The Not Just Bikes guy, from what I hear, has given up hope for America at this point. Whatever happens, I hope other nations can learn from our example: Cave to auto and oil interests at your own peril.
🙄 people just like their cars, it’s not some evil plot. Evening is big oils fault, never people meeting choices.
The major car manufacturers have literally been collaborating for the better part of a century, along with oil companies, to keep Americans dependent on cars. It’s a well-documented fact. Even long before Citizebs United made corporate bribery legal, they’ve been using the state’s power to quell protests, destroy non-car infrastructure, and outlaw use of our streets for anything except cars.
You talk to about Europe like it was a monolith. Where are I live cars are hugely more convenient than public transport.
Public transportation may be more convenient if you live and work on city centers, everything else not so much
I’m curious where you live. I was traveling well outside of the popular cities to small towns, and bikes seemed like a nicer option even when there was no tram (and there often was)
The fact of the matter is, in many places (I’m thinking of America mainly) using a car is far more convenient, if not the only option, and that’s the problem
And speaking from a place where cars are not the most convenient option, they are in fact, not convenient. I don’t imagine it’s more convenient to use a car in the US than here, except that the US lacks the more convenient options.
Just a few simple examples.
I can also commute to my office job that’s an hour away by car. But if I take the train, I can unpack my laptop, and start my workday on the train, having it count towards my hours, essentially meaning my commute doesn’t count against my free time. Also, I don’t have car payments. One of the biggest monthly expenses most households would go through simply doesn’t exist for me, since I can afford not having a car.
If I had a car, I could do all the things yanks use their cars for. But I don’t need to. It’s also peace of mind. Check engine light on? Car making funny sounds? Never a problem for me! And I’m always better on time since I never get into traffic.
But what if I need a car for some reason? I rent one by the minute, and it’s still much, much cheaper than owning one. And I can do that. I have more options.
My point is that the US doesn’t make cars the “most convenient” option, they make it the “least inconvenient” one by eliminating or degrading all other more convenient options.
A really city-centric view mind you. Sounds like something Londoners would say
I live in a country with amazing public transport too, but out in the sticks. Public transport is two buses a day for me, fuck that, it’s car or nothing
Happy to drive about in a 1.2 litre shitbox though cos I don’t have a tiny penis
The NL is decidedly a small country, but has decent public transport even in the middle of nowhere.
Eastern Europe used to be decent at availability, not so much at service, (if for nothing else, not many people had cars) but it is getting worse. There is a ton of rural cyclists though still.
That said, I’m fine with my view mostly being applicable to cities only, since cars are less of a problem in rural places. If you live in or near a city, you should be able to do without a car though. As in the country has the option to make you comfortable not owning a car.
I think you are stretching the semantics pretty far…the US is primarily rural geographically and urban only in very sparsely spaced cities…where Europe is urban in more condensed areas. The US doesn’t make everything ‘more inconvenient’ for the most part, most things are simple more inconvenient by nature.
On the other hand, within cities themselves, the US does shoot itself in the foot with it’s policies and what it subsidizes. Overall, though, most people don’t realize how really big the US is, space vs population-wise, compared to Europe or Japan.
My point is that the US doesn’t make cars the “most convenient” option, they make it the “least inconvenient”
That’s just semantic. The least convenient is the most convenient by definition. The question is what you want to be the most convenient. We agree that it shouldn’t be cars—you’re arguing for the sake of argument, not because we have an actual disagreement.
My point is that the US does not really make cars more convenient than other countries make cars. So cars in the US are as convenient as cars anywhere, while alternatives are missing in the US.
So it’s
cars in the US = cars in eg. NL < public transport in eg. NL
not
cars in the US > cars in eg. NL < public transport in eg. NL
Cars really are more convenient on an individual basis. It’s not ideal for the environment and getting stuck in traffic is a pain in the arse when it happens, but for the individual it provides greater benefits than public transport.
In the UK it’s cheaper than public transport, it’s much more reliable, it’s healthier (not being in close proximity to those who may be harbouring a flu), and it affords people the freedom to travel somewhere that public transport can’t get you sufficiently close to.
Personally I feel that the best step is to reduce the need for people to travel. If people don’t need to be in offices then don’t enforce policies to get them back in. That’ll reduce car usage as well as public transport.
You see this is the exact thing. The point is to FUCKING REDUCE the need for cars, not to shove everyone who has a driving license in gas chambers and mass burning every vehicle.
Concerning that people can’t even relay this simplest thing
Not realizing this is my objections to many posts here … too many people just want to punish drivers or car owners, without understanding that you’re needlessly creating hardship for the very people you’re trying to “save”, while also making your “15 minute city” utopias less desirable. The reality is that cars are usually (in the US) the most convenient option from the perspective of the driver. How can we change that? How can we give them other convenient options?
Changing this perspective is important, because getting rid of cars is likely a long drawn out process (and doesn’t apply everywhere). People do need cars most of this time. Let’s work with that, and try to fix our specifies so they use cars less and less
If more poeople had your perspective, I wouldn’t be constantly tempted to block this community. On my other account I did block after about 2 weeks. I have a bicycle, electric cars and work from home, but I can’t bicycle my 4 year old to swim lessons two nights a week 25 miles away. I have other kids and other time obligations you know? Doing the best I can, but it takes a car for now.
I agree, the premise of the question is “how can I make them realize they are wrong and their car isn’t convenient?” Particularly in an internet context, they are probably right that their car is more convenient, because they are driving places where you may never have been. There are places where cars suck and it’s best to find ways to keep the cars out of it, and places where even the best, well intentioned ‘non-car’ plans are not viable. Just need the right plan for the right context and the right facilities to let people gracefully be able to move between the two.
Most folks discussing “issues” on Lemmy are just angry and impotent (I don’t mean sexually).
They have no ability to build the world they want, and no way to positively vent their frustrations.
So they come here and just say shit like “guillotine the rich” and " fuck all cars"
Just how it goes, but it doesn’t reflect reality.
I think the convenience very much depends on the journey you want to make. To travel from London to Edinburgh by car means several hours where you can do nothing but hold the steering wheel. If you go by train, you can spend the time usefully … or sleep. If you’re talking about commuting, well, driving into most cities during rush hour means sitting in traffic jams every day, not just occasionally.
I agree it can depend on the journey. Convenience can be different things to different people, if two people are travelling from London to Edinburgh by train that could cost around £240 one way, as opposed to driving which could cost around £80 one way. I’d say the cost savings there are convenient for the two people and depending on their budget could outweigh the convenience of one of them being able to sleep on the journey.
Commuting is another matter, if cost of commuting by public transport was cheaper, reliable, personable and generally a more pleasant experience then more people would do it. Once again it also depends on the journey!
I think your approach is wrong.
Lemmy has too small a presence to influence the larger populace. You are shouting at a highway from a grass field across town.
People love convenience. So much they built trash chutes in their buildings to throw away their garbage. If someone implemented a system where you could throw out your garbage through the window, it would be an absolute hit.
What you need to do is sell the convenience. Make it cooler, cheaper, easier and/or faster.
People aren’t convinced by doing the right thing, that’s just masochism.
And they aren’t convinced by the “sacrifice now, get paid later” convention… Well, actually they are else scams wouldn’t be so successful. Anyway, people are dumb so the key to success is hitting that dumbness the right way to make it resonate in concert.
Build an orchestra of convenience, maestro!
Yeah, that’s pretty much how it is. People will take what they perceive to be the fastest, safest, and most convenient route from A to B, and they don’t really think about the long term cost or externalities of it.
Some of it is also about politics, particularly in cases where surburbs and cities share a political “unit”. So you get a situation where people in the city want walkability, but surburbanites vote against it so they can continue to drive into the city without any perceived obstacles.
It really depends on context.
If you have low population density, then there’s no escaping the reality that cars are convenient.
In high density environments, cars can’t be “the” convenient option.
Striving for the latter is admirable, but frequently mismanaged. For example around here there is one fantastic walkable development, with a rich amount of offices, stores, residential, and parks. However every other attempt is just appartments with crappy parking and no where to walk to (the commercial properties that get tossed into mixed use are largely vacant because the retail space want taken seriously, because the developers really just wanted to do apartments and the city mandates mixed use in a way that let’s them half ass it).
