This relates to the BBC article [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66596790] which states “the UK should pay $24tn (£18.8tn) for its slavery involvement in 14 countries”.
The UK abolished slavery in 1833. That’s 190 years ago. So nobody alive today has a slave, and nobody alive today was a slave.
Dividing £18tn by the number of UK taxpayers (31.6m) gives £569 each. Why do I, who have never owned a slave, have to give £569 to someone who similarly is not a slave?
When I’ve paid my £569 is that the end of the matter forever or will it just open the floodgates of other similar claims?
Isn’t this just a country that isn’t doing too well, looking at the UK doing reasonably well (cost of living crisis excluded of course), and saying “oh there’s this historical thing that affects nobody alive today but you still have to give us trillions of Sterling”?
Shouldn’t payment of reparations be limited to those who still benefit from the slave trade today, and paid to those who still suffer from it?
(Please don’t flame me. This is NSQ. I genuinely don’t know why this is something I should have to pay. I agree slavery is terrible and condemn it in all its forms, and we were right to abolish it.)
I was thinking the same thing in my country. My grandparents immigrated. They had more to do with the French Revolution than the slave trade.
If you are genuinely curious, theres a collection of articles published by the Atlantic. It deals with the US but seems relevant to your question.
Thanks,I’ll take a look. I had the same question, plus none of my ancestors were in the US when this happened and I have no idea what participation the country we came from may have had. At the risk of sounding like “all lives matter”, is it not our ethical duty to fight inequity, injustice, any loss of human rights? Slavery and all that went within it might be one of the causes, but what people today are affected by is inequity and injustice.
It effects tons of people, yourself included, in ways you have apparently never stopped to consider. I don’t say this to be shitty, but I’ll be direct about it.
Your ancestors came here, as a privileged class, and built generation wealth in their family because others were denied it. Go ahead and accept that. It doesn’t make you a shitty person, mine did too, mine never amounted to anything but poor, white trash, but even they had benefits from becoming established in this country, at that time. So did yours.
The government hugely benefited from it and should be held responsible for that. Taxes come from us, the circle continues.
If you’re going to take issue with it, and not be a shitty person, realistically we can’t pay enough to replace what was denied them. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t find some nominal amount, but your right, we should also look for ways to try and fix what we can’t be replaced.
Your ancestors came here, as a privileged class
According to family legend, the first to immigrate was fleeing wars around the time of Bismarck. He arrived in new York as a teenager: penniless, illiterate, and not knowing anyone. He worked for years as a farm laborer before being able to buy his own land and bring over his family
Nations that were the source of slaves remain on the whole impoverished and underdeveloped.
Nations that were slavers still remain on the whole wealthy and highly developed.
This is not a coincidence, and there is a reasonable case to be made for reparations on these grounds.
This is so false, slavery was wide practice in Africa already, the “slaving countrys” just bought them for the most part…
Yeah it existed as a practice. The big slave markets and infrastructure was not there until the North American slave trade opened up.
Simply not correct at all. Look up the trans Saharan slave trade. It was absolutely enormous business before the Portuguese sailed down the West Coast of Africa.
What do you think an enormous demand for slaves, as the colonial nations building plantations and mines in the americas, does to a the supply of slaves? Supply and demand, friend. It’s not as if all the enslaved people exported to the Americas were already in circulation when the europeans came knocking
Between 1500 and 1865, more than 80% of enslaved Africans were shipped to the Americas by European slave traders.
I’ve never seen an exact number ascribed to it, any chance you have a source?
I’m not sure if you are an ignorant apologist or outright racist but it feels important to comment on this given the number of uovotes this post is receiving. From an article from Slate I will link below:
"But, as historian Marcus Rediker writes, the “ancient and widely accepted institution” of enslavement in Africa was exacerbated by the European presence. Yes, European slave traders entered “preexisting circuits of exchange” when they arrived in the 16th century. But European demand changed the shape of this market, strengthening enslavers and ensuring that more and more people would be carried away. “[European] slave-ship captains wanted to deal with ruling groups and strong leaders, people who could command labor resources and deliver the ‘goods,’ ” Rediker writes, and European money and technology further empowered those who were already dominant, encouraging them to enslave greater numbers. Both the social structures and infrastructure that enabled African systems of enslavement were strengthened by the transatlantic slave trade.
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Bottom line: Why should this matter? This is a classic “two wrongs make a right” ethical proposition. Even if Africans (or Arabs, or Jews) colluded in the slave trade, should white Americans be entitled to do whatever they pleased with the people who were unlucky enough to fall victim?"
Is it possible that other factors led to the countries being wealthy or impoverished, and this allowed the wealthy to colonise or take the impoverished as slaves?
I recommend the book “Guns, germs, and steel” if you’re interested. I’m not sure it covers this specifically, but it does cover in depth the reasons for different areas of the world being more of less wealthy (it has nothing to do with the people and everything to do with the geographic area, climate, natural resources including flora and fauna, and proximity to other populations).
It’s an interesting read, even if a bit heavy.
Edit: it turns out the book is a bit contentious: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/wiki/historians_views/#wiki_historians.27_views_of_jared_diamond.27s_.22guns.2C_germs.2C_and_steel.22
Yes, definitely. But why they had guns is also another question. I recommend the book “Gun, germs, and steel” as a great look into how and why different populations formed as they did.
Edit: it turns out the book is a bit contentious: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/wiki/historians_views/#wiki_historians.27_views_of_jared_diamond.27s_.22guns.2C_germs.2C_and_steel.22
Yes, and even accounting for those, wealthy countries that took slaves still hold an enormous amount of responsibility for what they did
The original OP argument is that those captors or slaves don’t exist anymore. Even the countries barely exist. Is this a matter of descendants being responsible for their ancestors crimes?
I think there’s a strong feedback loop argument here but I’m not sure that’s the point you’re making.
The UKs position today is arguably due more to leading the Industrial Revolution and that was the main factor in the decay of slavery, so you need to balance historic grievances with development i.e. “what have the Romans ever done for us?”
Exactly. If anything, this amount of money is way too small.
Occasionally we read a news story about someone who escaped a maniac that kept them locked up for years, forcing them to work and do depraved things for little or no pay. We rightfully think this is terrible and the criminal is inhuman.
Slavery was millions of people in that situation for their entire lives. Whole economies were based on this genocide. We put Nazis to death for genocide. We put other leader on trial for similar crimes. Paying this tiny fine is the least the British (and other European governments) can do. The amount they really owe would bankrupt them.
What amount of money would you exchange for measurably worse lives (education, health, jobs) for you, your family, and everyone who looks like you for generations?
Is “tn” not short for trillion (1,000,000,000,000)?
If that’s the case then the actual number is 569,000 per person.
Some countries ended slavery by buying off the slave-owners — paying them for the property that they were being deprived of.
It’s kinda weird that they didn’t pay the enslaved people, who had been deprived of their own work and work-product and life and freedom.
As an American whose ancestors came from Europe around the same time that slavery was abolished here, I can be sure that none of my ancestors benefited directly from slavery; but also that they joined a society that had profited immensely from slavery. The whole reparations concept is complicated.
but also that they joined a society that had profited immensely from slavery.
The same is true for the descendants of slaves. They benefit from the same society that their enslaved ancestors participated in creating. They receive the same benefits of that society that you and your non-slave-owning ancestors receive, so for you, that issue is a wash.
Further, I would say that the descendants of Union soldiers who fought and died during the Civil War are owed at least similar reparations. When the deacendants of slavers get done paying the descendants of slaves, the descendants of slaves can turn around and pay the descendants of abolitionists for their sacrifices.
What of the descendants of the daughter of a former slaver and the son of a freed slave? Wouldn’t they, as descendants of slavers, owe as much in reparations as they are owed as descendants of slaves?
