this person describes it better than me:
Goddamn, that last paragraph speaks to me. I grew up in a little purple oasis surrounded by a desert of deep, deep red, and the idea that there are all these people just WAITING for a REAL LEFTIST to come along, whose ideas they’d all agree with and overwhelmingly vote for, because they only vote GOP because they don’t believe Dems are GENUINE about SUPPORTING THE WORKERS is just…
… neither my experience nor supported by polling, nor supported by electoral results.
A lot of people have dogshit beliefs. A lot of work has to be done before they’d even consider voting for someone other than the fucking fascist party.
I’m this scenario, voting is just wasted time and energy. At worst, it’s pretending you have any kind of control over your conditions.
Objectively false.
Never forget the recent case of Kris Mayes, who refuses to uphold the Arizona supreme court’s sweeping ban of abortion. Kris Mayes only won her 2022 election by 280 votes. Voting changes things.
That’s why I always vote for Satan.
If you want to argue that the answer to Biden being too soft on Israel’s crimes is to let the guy who handed them East Jerusalem, The West Bank, and The Golan Heights on a silver platter get back into power, you’re either a covert Zionist agent, or an unwitting Zionist agent. Either way, you have no business lecturing about the moral course of action in this crisis.
Sir, this is a Wendy’s.
Jokes aside I unironically agree with everything you just said.
Can I get a double with no pickle, medium fry and a frosty to dip my fries in?
a frosty to dip my fries in?
If this is what the kids are doing nowadays, I hate the kids
People aren’t upset because Biden isnt trying hard enough to stop Israel. We’re upset because he’s an active participant in what theyre doing. Using executive orders to bypass congress to get them more weapons.
I’ll be nice and assume you’re just stupid instead of actively trying to support the Zionist cause by letting their biggest supporter back into office.
No, don’t worry, just like how the right-wing winning in the US will TOTALLY lead to the left-wing suddenly organizing and taking power, enabling genocide will actually STOP it.
God, the brilliance of this modern form of accelerationism, it’s just… frightening, isn’t it?
You ignore the other option in current criticisms of Biden. No, I don’t want Trump to win, but it sure would be nice if Biden listened to criticism and stopped his current, weak “I told Netanyahu, ‘Stop this, bub, or I’m going to get really cross with you. Now, listen here, I mean it this time!’” enablement of the genocide Israel is carrying out. He’s apparently able to listen voters on stuff like not banning menthol cigarettes for fear of alienating black voters due to black smokers predominantly smoking menthols, yet when younger and more left-wing voters ask “Could you please stop fast-tracking Israel’s ability to commit genocide so I can vote for you with a clean conscience?” the response is apparently, “Lol, get fucked.”
If Biden loses, this will be entirely on him. He can cave to pressure from a fraction of the African American population that smokes over something that will actively help kill them, but is seemingly committed to ignoring young voters across demographic groups to enable something that systematically murders innocent people, makes the US complicit in crimes against humanity and offers literally no tangible benefit to the US, but could get him some more of that sweet AIPAC money.
Israel committed a far bigger land grab under Biden than under Trump
Israel’s largest land seizure since Oslo Accords deals fresh blow to Palestinian statehood
Biden rejects the Palestinian UN application
US vetoes widely supported resolution backing full UN membership for Palestine
Genocide Joe lies that israel isn’t committing war crimes so he can send them more bombs to commit Genocide with
Leaked U.S. Memos Say Israel May Be Violating International Law In Blocking Gaza Aid
Trump cannot be worse for Palestine than Biden. Biden fully supports full Genocide of all Palestinians. Accusing opponents of Biden of being Zionist agents is top tier irony.
Strange how the people the jump in to question my motives are always those that actively defend israel.
If you want to argue that the answer to Biden being too soft on Israel’s crimes is to let the guy who handed them East Jerusalem, The West Bank, and The Golan Heights on a silver platter get back into power, you’re either a covert Zionist agent, or an unwitting Zionist agent.
The answer to Biden’s complicity in Netanyahu’s genocide is greater political pressure for him to stop.
Of course, people who don’t want him to stop will always try to pretend that any opposition is support for Trump.
Of course, people who want an excuse to support trump will pretend anyone not vocally raging about Biden every day is a lover of genocide.
I’ve said multiple times in this thread that I’m voting for Biden. I’ve told you that multiple times as well. You have chosen to ignore it and call me a trumpist.
Of course, people who don’t want him to stop will always try to pretend that any opposition is support for Trump.
You honestly think the people posting this sentiment don’t want Netanyahu to stop? That’s a silly opinion if so. Maybe you disagree with the logic being used, but you can’t say these people actively want Netanyahu to continue what he’s doing.
I want this to end as much as you, but it is undeniable that Biden is a better candidate than Trump in this respect. And in our country there are only 2 options so vote for. So if I’m not voting for Biden, I am just helping Trump get in office and do more harm.
You honestly think the people posting this sentiment don’t want Netanyahu to stop?
I don’t know. They sure as hell don’t want Biden to stop supporting Netanyahu’s genocide.
Maybe you disagree with the logic being used, but you can’t say these people actively want Netanyahu to continue what he’s doing.
Then they should pressure Biden to stop supporting Netanyahu’s genocide. They won’t. They get mad at people who say Biden should stop supporting genocide instead.
I want this to end as much as you,
Yeah.
but it is undeniable that Biden is a better candidate than Trump in this respect.
Yes. He should still stop supporting genocide. Maybe centrists should say so.
When the American Empire implodes (hopefully soon) and a thousand years pass and an enlightened civilization is looking back on us with all your “nuance” weathered down, I don’t want my name to be thrown on a list of people who voted for genocide. No democracy worth saving would’ve ever had its most important vote of our lifetimes ever for the fate of the world come down to Vanilla or Orange Sherbet flavored fascism. We are at the logical end of the American Experiment.
Cool, your name will be thrown on a list of people who enabled even more genocide than those who voted for less genocide. Thanks for having more blood on your hands, I guess.
Inaction isn’t action. Stop trying to force your guilty conscience on me. Every Palestinian killed by by Israel was murdered with the full support and backing of the president we both (presumably) voted for in 2020, where we seem to differ is that I’m not going to have that blood on my hands when that genocider wants to ask for a fucking second turn at office.
Okay. Your state goes for Trump by a margin of one vote, for the sake of the argument. You and a comrade who refused to vote for that demon Joe Biden were the difference, and the state’s electoral votes are enough to narrowly swing the election to Trump.
In this admittedly extreme scenario, would you and your friend bear responsibility for Trump then giving full shift to the Israelis to complete their genocide as well as murdering numerous minorities in the US and empowering authoritarian regimes abroad, including the genocide in Ukraine?
Or do you think that having the power to do something, and intentionally doing nothing, is some form of innocence?
But you should vote again because “orange man bad” and maybe this time the self proclaimed non-Jewish Zionist whose pockets are lined by Israili money won’t commit genocide.
You know it’s actually funny at this point. All of these people can go outside and find a protest. They’re all over the country. Instead they’re over here trying to guilt shame others into voting for a genocidal zionist. You wanna know why? It’s because they don’t care. That’s what it all comes down to. Either through Israili propaganda or just through blatant racism they are convinced that the massacre is somewhat acceptable or at least not completely unacceptable. Therefore voting for Biden is still a viable option.
Exactly as you have said. My vote counts. Even if it doesn’t make a difference. I would know. Every time a child dies in Gaza, I would know that I voted for this.
Expecting anything to change by voting for the same people is dumb as fuck. I’m expected to choose between a genocidal maniac and a fascist and somehow the dumbasses here think that they can “lesser evil” their way out of this.
genuinely asking here as im trying to understand our differences: if trump gets another win then does exactly as he promised and basically nukes millions of palestineans, you won’t feel any guilt at all for allowing this to come about unchecked?
and yet you would feel the full burden of guilt if a lesser degree of murder came from biden?
like do you see the irony here? inaction is action. you are watching a burning wreck and choosing to stand by from my perspective.
Inaction isn’t action
Unless you’re dead, choosing not to vote is an action. Don’t deny your own agency.
Well, if I were a betting woman, I’d say your name isn’t going to be remembered at all, so you can probably safely stop using that as an excuse for apathy.
I’d say your name isn’t going to be remembered at all,
Great! Yours will be remembered for generations as the lady who voted for the genocide of brown kids across the world :)
Whereas you enabled the genocide of even more kids all across the world, as well as minorities here at home. How moral.
Leaving aside the fact that you seem to think historians will care about individual voters, this election is, unfortunately, about more than Israel. It’s also about LGBTQ+ people, women, the environment, Ukraine, and not having a rapist thief who has admitted to ambitions of dictatorship in office. So if voting makes you complicit in every single thing a politician does, then sitting idly by and not caring if Trump wins would put a lot of blood on your hands, in the US and abroad, including in Gaza. Your smug superiority does nothing to protect those people and may harm a lot of others.
Voting does make you complicit in the things the candidate has said they will do. For example, if the candidate says “I will get rid of abortion” then voting for them means you are partially responsible if they actually do get rid of abortion. Or if they say “I will kill all the gays” or “I will lock up all non-Christians” then don’t act all surprised pikachu face when it happens.
It’s not a blood pact, but it’s not a football game either where you’re just rooting for your team. You have to weigh the consequences of casting a vote for someone and decide if you can live with the possible outcomes and/or pick the lesser of two evils.
If you don’t pick the lesser of two evils, you’re saying you’re okay with the greater.
Man, the famed revolutionary Robespierre once said, “To rule innocently is insanity.” He was wrong about numerous other things, but he fucking nailed that on the head. There are no good decisions in positions of power. If you fail oh-so-nobly, the nobility of your fall and refusal to compromise with your ideals isn’t going to save a single goddamn person, and there’s a good goddamn chance it’ll kill many, many more. Every decision has costs in the lives of innocent people, and there is no abstention from that that is anything more than giving license to the currently-occurring trends happening.
In a democracy, we share power. The more democratic the society, the more power is shared - and the power that is shared also comes with responsibility for what that power does. The modern US is less democratic than it should be, but it’s much more democratic than pre-Enlightenment societies - or prior incarnations of the US, for that matter. We all have blood on our hands, because we all have a share of the decision-making power.
We must choose the option that improves things to most - or damages things the least - to the best of our ability, whether in voting, organizing, protesting; all of it. And abrogation of that decision-making responsibility in any area is not abrogation of guilt; it is acceptance of the worse of the results.
I think the best analogy I’ve heard had compared voting to transportation. If you’re at the office and want to go home, there probably isn’t a train that goes directly to your front door. So you get on the train heading in the right direction, and maybe at the end of that line you still need to take a bus and walk a couple blocks, but that’s how you ultimately get where you want to go. Otherwise you’re going to be in the same spot waiting for a perfect train that’s not coming.
So you get on the train heading in the right direction
This assumes any trains will get you closer to your destination.
