If you want to argue that the answer to Biden being too soft on Israel’s crimes is to let the guy who handed them East Jerusalem, The West Bank, and The Golan Heights on a silver platter get back into power, you’re either a covert Zionist agent, or an unwitting Zionist agent. Either way, you have no business lecturing about the moral course of action in this crisis.
Sir, this is a Wendy’s.
Jokes aside I unironically agree with everything you just said.
Can I get a double with no pickle, medium fry and a frosty to dip my fries in?
a frosty to dip my fries in?
If this is what the kids are doing nowadays, I hate the kids
If you want to argue that the answer to Biden being too soft on Israel’s crimes is to let the guy who handed them East Jerusalem, The West Bank, and The Golan Heights on a silver platter get back into power, you’re either a covert Zionist agent, or an unwitting Zionist agent.
The answer to Biden’s complicity in Netanyahu’s genocide is greater political pressure for him to stop.
Of course, people who don’t want him to stop will always try to pretend that any opposition is support for Trump.
Of course, people who don’t want him to stop will always try to pretend that any opposition is support for Trump.
You honestly think the people posting this sentiment don’t want Netanyahu to stop? That’s a silly opinion if so. Maybe you disagree with the logic being used, but you can’t say these people actively want Netanyahu to continue what he’s doing.
I want this to end as much as you, but it is undeniable that Biden is a better candidate than Trump in this respect. And in our country there are only 2 options so vote for. So if I’m not voting for Biden, I am just helping Trump get in office and do more harm.
You honestly think the people posting this sentiment don’t want Netanyahu to stop?
I don’t know. They sure as hell don’t want Biden to stop supporting Netanyahu’s genocide.
Maybe you disagree with the logic being used, but you can’t say these people actively want Netanyahu to continue what he’s doing.
Then they should pressure Biden to stop supporting Netanyahu’s genocide. They won’t. They get mad at people who say Biden should stop supporting genocide instead.
I want this to end as much as you,
Yeah.
but it is undeniable that Biden is a better candidate than Trump in this respect.
Yes. He should still stop supporting genocide. Maybe centrists should say so.
Of course, people who want an excuse to support trump will pretend anyone not vocally raging about Biden every day is a lover of genocide.
I’ve said multiple times in this thread that I’m voting for Biden. I’ve told you that multiple times as well. You have chosen to ignore it and call me a trumpist.
Israel committed a far bigger land grab under Biden than under Trump
Israel’s largest land seizure since Oslo Accords deals fresh blow to Palestinian statehood
Biden rejects the Palestinian UN application
US vetoes widely supported resolution backing full UN membership for Palestine
Genocide Joe lies that israel isn’t committing war crimes so he can send them more bombs to commit Genocide with
Leaked U.S. Memos Say Israel May Be Violating International Law In Blocking Gaza Aid
Trump cannot be worse for Palestine than Biden. Biden fully supports full Genocide of all Palestinians. Accusing opponents of Biden of being Zionist agents is top tier irony.
Strange how the people the jump in to question my motives are always those that actively defend israel.
People aren’t upset because Biden isnt trying hard enough to stop Israel. We’re upset because he’s an active participant in what theyre doing. Using executive orders to bypass congress to get them more weapons.
I’ll be nice and assume you’re just stupid instead of actively trying to support the Zionist cause by letting their biggest supporter back into office.
No, don’t worry, just like how the right-wing winning in the US will TOTALLY lead to the left-wing suddenly organizing and taking power, enabling genocide will actually STOP it.
God, the brilliance of this modern form of accelerationism, it’s just… frightening, isn’t it?
You ignore the other option in current criticisms of Biden. No, I don’t want Trump to win, but it sure would be nice if Biden listened to criticism and stopped his current, weak “I told Netanyahu, ‘Stop this, bub, or I’m going to get really cross with you. Now, listen here, I mean it this time!’” enablement of the genocide Israel is carrying out. He’s apparently able to listen voters on stuff like not banning menthol cigarettes for fear of alienating black voters due to black smokers predominantly smoking menthols, yet when younger and more left-wing voters ask “Could you please stop fast-tracking Israel’s ability to commit genocide so I can vote for you with a clean conscience?” the response is apparently, “Lol, get fucked.”
If Biden loses, this will be entirely on him. He can cave to pressure from a fraction of the African American population that smokes over something that will actively help kill them, but is seemingly committed to ignoring young voters across demographic groups to enable something that systematically murders innocent people, makes the US complicit in crimes against humanity and offers literally no tangible benefit to the US, but could get him some more of that sweet AIPAC money.
Voting does make you complicit in the things the candidate has said they will do. For example, if the candidate says “I will get rid of abortion” then voting for them means you are partially responsible if they actually do get rid of abortion. Or if they say “I will kill all the gays” or “I will lock up all non-Christians” then don’t act all surprised pikachu face when it happens.
It’s not a blood pact, but it’s not a football game either where you’re just rooting for your team. You have to weigh the consequences of casting a vote for someone and decide if you can live with the possible outcomes and/or pick the lesser of two evils.
If you don’t pick the lesser of two evils, you’re saying you’re okay with the greater.
Man, the famed revolutionary Robespierre once said, “To rule innocently is insanity.” He was wrong about numerous other things, but he fucking nailed that on the head. There are no good decisions in positions of power. If you fail oh-so-nobly, the nobility of your fall and refusal to compromise with your ideals isn’t going to save a single goddamn person, and there’s a good goddamn chance it’ll kill many, many more. Every decision has costs in the lives of innocent people, and there is no abstention from that that is anything more than giving license to the currently-occurring trends happening.
In a democracy, we share power. The more democratic the society, the more power is shared - and the power that is shared also comes with responsibility for what that power does. The modern US is less democratic than it should be, but it’s much more democratic than pre-Enlightenment societies - or prior incarnations of the US, for that matter. We all have blood on our hands, because we all have a share of the decision-making power.
We must choose the option that improves things to most - or damages things the least - to the best of our ability, whether in voting, organizing, protesting; all of it. And abrogation of that decision-making responsibility in any area is not abrogation of guilt; it is acceptance of the worse of the results.
I think the best analogy I’ve heard had compared voting to transportation. If you’re at the office and want to go home, there probably isn’t a train that goes directly to your front door. So you get on the train heading in the right direction, and maybe at the end of that line you still need to take a bus and walk a couple blocks, but that’s how you ultimately get where you want to go. Otherwise you’re going to be in the same spot waiting for a perfect train that’s not coming.
So you get on the train heading in the right direction
This assumes any trains will get you closer to your destination.
this person describes it better than me:
Goddamn, that last paragraph speaks to me. I grew up in a little purple oasis surrounded by a desert of deep, deep red, and the idea that there are all these people just WAITING for a REAL LEFTIST to come along, whose ideas they’d all agree with and overwhelmingly vote for, because they only vote GOP because they don’t believe Dems are GENUINE about SUPPORTING THE WORKERS is just…
… neither my experience nor supported by polling, nor supported by electoral results.
A lot of people have dogshit beliefs. A lot of work has to be done before they’d even consider voting for someone other than the fucking fascist party.
I’m this scenario, voting is just wasted time and energy. At worst, it’s pretending you have any kind of control over your conditions.
Objectively false.
Never forget the recent case of Kris Mayes, who refuses to uphold the Arizona supreme court’s sweeping ban of abortion. Kris Mayes only won her 2022 election by 280 votes. Voting changes things.
Voting does sort of make you complicit, honestly.
But guess what? Not voting also makes you complicit. So does voting in a way that has no chance of having an effect based on the current rules.
Basically, existing as an eligible voter, at least in a country where voting isn’t rigged (so like, Russians are off the hook here, for example) makes you complicit in your government’s actions.
That’s kind of a big point of being in a democratic society - we are all, every one of us, responsible for the actions of our government.
And if you don’t like that responsibility, I get it, I totally sympathize, because I agree. I hate that responsibility, especially cause I know damn well I’m not qualified to make those decisions. But I still am responsible, and pretending I’m not doesn’t change that.
Not voting also makes you complicit
What if I vote for someone you don’t like, though? Say, by endorsing a third party or spoiling the ballot with a write in?
That’s kind of a big point of being in a democratic society - we are all, every one of us, responsible for the actions of our government.
Police officer bludgeoning student protestor with a truncheon
“WE ARE ALL RESPONSIBLE FOR MY ACTIONS, CITIZEN!”
at least in a country where voting isn’t rigged (so like, Russians are off the hook here, for example)
So we’re all off the hook, then?
That’s kind of a big point of being in a democratic society
You don’t live in a democratic society.
Everywhere
Tell me where you live and I’ll show you how anti-democratic the society you live in really is.
Up for this challenge?
Whenever people express the sentiment that we need Biden to put his foot down on genocide I’m always for it.
But then when you ask them what they want to do it always becomes some nebulous Republican rhetoric about how Trump’s not that bad.
Yes we need the genocide to stop, Trump will not accomplish that, he will make it worse.
We can pressure Congress and continue to protest because it needs to stop.
The past eight years have been such a strong argument for ranked choice voting.
What the actual fuck? They are pretty clear what they want. ONE we stop giving weapons to isreal. TWO we stop getting in the way of a cease fire. THREE we start giving humanitarian aid to trapped Palestinians. FOUR we cooperate with The Hague on what evidence we have on isreal war crimes.
These are things we could do without much effort that would have immediate impact on both stopping the genocide and boosting his numbers.
I get we want “our strategic ally in the Middle East” but maybe if we stop doing all the war crimes and genocide we wouldn’t need to write a blank check to Israel every-time they run out of genocide juice. If our status as an ally to isreal is contingent on what we are doing, we are not an ally we are being used.
It seems this thread pops up every time Fox News talks about Biden’s slipping numbers. The disillusionment of the left is real. And calling them out and saying “but trump!” Is not going to convince them, it’s not like they forgot.
If they complain about Biden being complicit in genocide. Now the time to do it. And it’s up to them if they follow through with their threat, and it’s up to Biden if he’s willing to risk it
I’m not asking what Biden could do, I’m very clear on what he could do.
What I’m saying is what we as individuals could do to pressure them realistically.
You’re failing to recognize the inherent biases of the voting system, we all know that our system favors a two party outcome. Which is to say it’s a statistical improbability for anyone except for the two most popular parties to win.
This isn’t just my opinion this is well known statistical fact with many years to back it up.
This puts us in the awkward place of choosing the least bad candidate, Obviously pressuring Biden isn’t working and I’m not happy about it.
But when we consider our vote we have to consider more than just the situation in the middle East, something that the Republicans don’t even want to fix.
That’s why I think it would be better to pressure Congress and to push for ranked choice voting and to continue to protest.
Because at least rank choice voting would allow us to vote for a better option rather than the least bad option.
You fell into the same trap, no actionable advice to the individual.
You will never, short of a violent revolution, EVER get Congress to pass ranked choice voting. That would dilute both parties power. Preventing you from having a meaningful choice is the only true bipartisan effort. And democrats have already said they would veto any primary vote on candidate when they wish. And have stood in the way of states enacting ranked choice voting on a state level.
Also you might convince accelerationists to not follow through with the threat of not voting or voting trump. But unfortunately that is probably the smallest fraction of those disillusioned. Most normally never vote, and a bunch feel the system is broken and feel betrayed by Biden. It takes effort to get these voters, and Biden has unfortunately done less then nothing. Well other then holding excusing college debt over peoples heads to enact piece meal whenever his number take a dip.
Truly Biden has to do something to galvanize his base, because it’s looking grim
Democrats claim to be the good guys but can’t stop themselves from engaging in this massive faschie disinformation campaign about anyone left of genocide Joe. I’ve not seen a single user in leftist forums saying we should vote Trump for “acceleration” but I can’t fucking escape it being thrown around as a consistent fact by dems.
Same with how they can’t call a third party vote a “third party vote,” its always a “spoiler” or “protest vote,” (when they aren’t outright lying and claiming anyone not voting Biden is actually not voting and advocating for others to not vote.)
Turns out, if you need leftists to win you should probably stop telling them to eat shit and lying about them at every fucking turn. I’m no political expert but 🤷♂️
The president isn’t the entire government there are other places you can put pressure. I’m not saying what’s happening is right, I’m not saying that you should vote for him.
If you are moral compass won’t allow you to align yourself with Joe Biden I completely understand that.
You have to acknowledge the reality that by dying on that hill you choose the other option whether you mean to or not. We should be rioting the streets to change it but it is the way it is.
It is more complex than that because of things like unequal vote distribution but more or less that’s what it boils down to.
But then when you ask them what they want to do it always becomes some nebulous Republican rhetoric about how Trump’s not that bad.
I tend to see “we need to pull Biden to the left” pitched as a solution, right up until it means doing anything to impede Biden’s political agenda.
Don’t vote for him? You’re MAGA.
Don’t donate to him? You’re MAGA.
Don’t block walk for him? You’re MAGA.
Say anything critical of him on the Internet? Russian Bot Chinese Wumao Republican Traitor Why Do You Hate America?!
I saw the same thing from Republicans in 2004. “We’re at war so any kind of dissent means you’re with the terrorists!”
And it worked for Bush. He got another four years out of the hysteria. Maybe it’ll work for Biden, too.
I don’t think anyone here is equating not voting for Biden to being a Trumpet but due to the reality of our voting system absence of a vote is in and of itself a vote so you have to decide your best option whatever that may be.
Problem is the opposition has the same or worse policies on Palestine and worse policies on a lot of others.
I’m not a fan of this “least bad option” we’ve got ourselves into either but to equate the two parties or to deny the reality before us is how we allow it to get worse.
due to the reality of our voting system absence of a vote is in and of itself a vote
Sure. Although, I might go one step further and argue that due to the reality of our voting system (state-by-state winner-take-all) merely being counted in the census in a given district is what really counts as a “vote”. The electoral college doesn’t care who you vote for, only who won the majority. One of the fundamental flaws of western disproportional representation is how minority voters are functionally unrepresented.
Problem is the opposition has the same or worse policies on Palestine
This isn’t a problem unique to the US. We routinely see elections caged and captured by dominant political parties with overlapping beliefs, from Japan to France to India. When you’re being funneled into a single awful policy, there’s little point in debating over which party is better on an issue that receives wide bipartisan support.
“You have to vote for Joe Biden to end the holocaust in Palestine” comes across as utterly tone-deaf, given that Biden’s Democrats have been actively enabling said holocaust through arms sales, foreign policy, and willful neglect of international law.
I’m not a fan of this “least bad option” we’ve got ourselves into either
Nobody is. But the endless apology for said “bad option” purely on the grounds that “other guy is worse” only reinforces the badness of the first guy. You’re cutting your own team a blank check to rob you when you won’t even entertain a third option.
That’s before we even get into the futility of voting (D) in a state like Ohio or Florida or Texas (or California or New York or Washington) when the outcome of these elections is all but predetermined. The absolute least you can do is to follow the lead of those Arab/Persian communities in the Midwest and spoil some ballots to demonstrate your dissatisfaction.
Say what you will about “least bad options” but as soon as Biden watched 20% of his Minnesota support evaporate in the face of united Muslim dissident, he did actually start to bend on the issue. Had a more serious left-wing contender been on the ticket, perhaps we would have even seen a primary upset in 2024.
On the flip side, I can’t help but note how far-right Evangelicals have bent the GOP on issues by throwing their support to a guy like Trump, when more traditional DeSantis / Christie / Hailey hacks insisted on triangulating between business liberal and social conservative issues.
At some level, you can’t ignore the success right-wing radicals have achieved by holding their ground and threatening the success of the party by withholding their support. Moderate Republicans - who just vote for anyone with an ® in their name because they’re scared of Democrats - are the ones getting sidelined by the party leadership. Why should progressives fall into the same trap set by conservative Democrats?
