How about fuck Russia.
given how theyâre practically used itâs not particularly likely that cluster munitions are going to disproportionately harm Russiansâessentially by design (and not dissimilar to the mining Russia is doing in parts of Ukraine), cluster munitions canât and donât work like thatâso i think if you lean on that to justify this thatâs a pretty weak justification.
i donât think Ukraine should carte blanche do things i would consider bad and harmful just because theyâre unambiguously the good guys. cluster munitions have clear drawbacks and are clearly harmful to people who arenât Russians and arenât combatants when used, and i donât think countries should kill civilians and people who havenât done anything wrong just because it maybe potentially will slightly expedite a war thatâs now been going on for almost ten years. thatâs a good way to end up concluding war crimes are justified because theyâre happening to the âwrongâ people.
How about you let Ukrainians the Ukrainian bourgeoisie decide how best to defend their homes property and class interests?
Itâs going to be military targets which will be fucked up.
unless you have data i donât, the article seems to pretty definitively refute this point. overwhelmingly the people impacted by cluster munition use are civilians (97% of casualties were civilians in 2021) both in and outside of Ukraine, and their usage has a very long tail of fatalities.[1] there is no reason to think that even if theyâre tailored specifically to nebulous military use against Russian soldiers that wonât also be the outcome here, because it is literally everywhere else they get used.
And no, seeing how cluster ammunition is practically used, russian civilians are not going to disproportionately harmed. Itâs going to be military targets which will be fucked up.
The issue with cluster munitions isnât how theyâre used, but what happens when a bomblet fails. Cluster bombs release hundreds to thousands of submunitions, and when one bomblet fails, it can remain armed and ready to detonate if/when someone comes by and bumps it, picks it up or runs over it with a tractor.
This can lead to issues long after the war is finished, as people are doing their own thing and get hurt or killed.
Yours is the only plausible rebuttal Iâve seen in this thread. Iâm aware of how inhumane Russian military has been but Iâve also seen few (a small number) of stories when Ukranian military did something questionable.
Can you expand upon how the cluster munitions might be used and if thereâs any oversight regarding their usage? (Which seems fair given how things turned out in Afghanistan).
This is less about who started what, and more about who will keep dying from it for the next 20 years.
Imagine Ukraine retakes control over some territories using cluster bombs⌠now they end up with an unknown number of unexploded bomblets lying around Ukrainian territory.
Itâs also very likely that Ukraine will be using the cluster munitions to clear out minefields more than using them as an attacking/defensive weapon
Itâs also very likely that Ukraine will be using the cluster munitions to clear out minefields more than using them as an attacking/defensive weapon
pretty much everyone says theyâre going to use these for good reasons that will not harm civilians and have purely military consequencesâit never works out that way, and seldom is restricted to those uses once rubber hits the road. iâm not sure why weâre assuming that this will be any different other than that the actor is sympathetic and weâd like to (incorrectly) assume their judgement is unimpeachable and infallible.
âgiven how theyâre practically usedâŚâ
Youâre assuming they will be used in the conventional way instead of, say, breaking out the submunitions to drop individually with drones.
Youâre assuming they will be used in the conventional way instead of, say, breaking out the submunitions to drop individually with drones.
yes, because itâs basically a guarantee they will be used in the conventional way even if theyâre also used for other purposesâthe level of trust being assumed here of Ukraine is, respectfully, kind of silly given the extremely well established issues with any usage of these things and the nature of wars. things which âshouldnâtâ be used get used all the time.
and also: even in the best case scenario here, individually using them is basically a lateral move. the problem with cluster munitions is a very high rate of failure which given their size and number adds up massively over time relative to other munitionsâindividual usage doesnât really help that, it just slows the problem.