Comment by Plastic_Ramses@lemmy.world on Restaurant group in Massachusetts is trying to reject a public vote on paying tipped workers

Crosspost

The ballot effort to increase the minimum wage for tipped workers faces a new challenge as opponents seek to disqualify signatures collected by organizers.

The Massachusetts Restaurant Association filed an objection to several signatures and petition sheets submitted to the secretary of state by the ballot campaign group, One Fair Wage. The signatures were the final hurdle for ballot organizers to get the issue in front of voters in November.

Turning tipped positions into non-tipped positions will push down wages for those formerly tipped positions.

At least when prices went up, servers got a piece. Now restaurant owners will stagnate wages and pocket the increase.

I don’t think anyone is saying we need to not allow tipping, just stop the stupid idea that restaurants can pay less just because an employee is tipped. They shouldn’t be reliant on the good will of people or the social pressure to tip, that should just be an extra.

I mean, I’m saying that.

To me I’ve never understood why sit-down restaurants should be looked at any differently to any other business. Why can’t the actual price just be listed on the menu?

Like, if we’ve collectively decided that the actual price is 20% higher than what is listed, then let’s just treat this like every other profession and raise prices by 20%.

Why are people taking orders and carrying food special? Other customer-facing positions generally don’t get tips. Chefs (who make the food!) generally don’t get tips.

Just pay the waitstaff a fair wage and quit the tipping!

Are you saying you think tips should be banned? Like if I offered someone a tip and they accept it should they be in trouble? Cause that’s what I mean when I say no one is saying tipping should be not allowed.

I’m not sure it would be possible to change the culture any other way, since it’s so entrenched.

The only restaurants I know of that were able to successfully transition to a less toxic business model for servers did so through a combination of paying servers a fair base wage ($20+ an hour) and banning tips.

Culture is tricky in that it’s ‘sticky’ and often takes a lot of effort to change. Having a policy like ‘tipping not required’ would still lead to the vast majority of customers feeling obligated to tip because not tipping carries with it such a strong implication of being greedy/stingy.

I should mention that this all mostly applies to the US and that there are plenty of countries with flourishing hospitality industries where tipping is virtually nonexistent (or even seen as insulting).

I just don’t see the harm with leaving it not banned. At least for me personally the problem with the culture comes from the fact that servers rely on it to make a living so if you don’t do it you’re denying them that. So if you fix that problem and pay a liveable wage and just allow tips as an extra then sure they might still see someone not tipping as stingy but atleast now it’s not impacting their ability to make a living directly so they can’t be as justifiably angry.

Cause atleast personally I haven’t worked in the service industry but I have worked minimum wage at a grocery store and I remember they told us we couldn’t accept extra money from customers which I always thought was dumb. I wasn’t expecting people to give me extra money and it was pretty rare that it happened but occasionally a nice person would come through and offer me some extra money for helping them and I thought it was dumb I had to turn that down. It didn’t make me think less of the people who didn’t do that, just would have been a nice extra bonus to help me out.

It’s not 1995 anymore. Most restaurants require chefs to be tipped out.

Its only the really shitty ones that dont.

From my limited experience working in restaurants, the chefs also get paid at least minimum wage if not more

Of course they do, it’s the law. It’s crazy to me that servers are (seemingly randomly) excluded from this and have to rely on tips.

In most major cities youd be hard pressed to find even an ‘ok’ position that is paying minumum wage. Most are making 20-25+tips.

Edit: the dishwasher at my restaurant makes 72k. Thats not a joke.

I’ve worked in a number of places as a chef (from low to high end) and that was never the case anywhere I worked. To be fair, it’s been almost a decade though, so maybe I’m out of date.

Fwiw, the industry has changed. Chefs are paid on par with foh nowadays.

There is a good chance local markets differ here too.

A ton of people, in this thread, are saying tipping should be banned/not a thing.

I haven’t seen anyone say it should be banned, just not required because the person isn’t making enough money to live off of just the wage they’re paid. I agree it shouldn’t need to be a thing but it should still be an option if you have extra money and feel generous, it just shouldn’t be expected.

If the goal is to do away with tipping, I don’t know of another way besides banning it that will be effective.

The provinces of Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia all did away with the seperate (lesser) server wage so that all employees go by a universal minimum wage. I don’t think that changed patrons’ tipping habits one bit.

And servers are still reliant on the good will of people. Ain’t nobody with real expenses getting by with some of these minimum wages. Not with the current cost-of-living.

Ok. So what.

If they can fill the positions at that rate then they should be happy. They can increase prices since consumers don’t tip anymore and pocket the difference.

If you are correct, then the owners wouldn’t be fighting this.

Wait, are you telling me that the market decides wages and we should be happy with it?

That’s capitalist bullshit.

Having a burden to pay your staff is just that - a burden.

It doesnt mean that owners wont make more money, its just a bigger pain in the ass than its worth.

You mean like every other company on the face of the planet? Seems to work out just fine.

That’s a false comparison, and you know it.

Not the person you replied to, but I do think it’s a fair comparison, most are operated by a buy product sell product to customer system. Take retail for example there is nothing in a restaurant environment that retail isn’t having to do at store level, because it’s still buying products with the intent to supply it to the customer base. You still have to deal with the same mechanics still have to deal with waste you still have to deal with pricing for the consumer you still have to deal with your wages, so my question is how is the restaurant industry not the same.

This of course is also not including the majority of the other countries that do not use our system and seem to be handling it just fine.

As a consumer I would much rather have to deal with a higher menu price with the sign that saying tips not required then have to deal with trying to figure out how much the transaction is going to cost plus whatever the tip is going to be which seems to be getting higher and higher. Plus it also helps the employee out because if they’re in a lower end restaurant that isn’t getting many customers or they get assigned a crappier area, they don’t have to keep track themselves to make sure they’re reporting to their employer “hey I didn’t actually make minimum wage this week so you’re going to have to pay the difference” it also removes a lot of volitily in terms of how much you’re actually going to get paid

Don’t know what else to say but boohoo

Continue advocating for the owner class then i guess.

Staff make more money on a tipped system than not.

And do you think that extra money comes from the owners?

I don’t think he reached that stage of development tbh.

The extra money comes from the customer no matter the system.

But now wages will stay down while ownership makes more.

Guess you’ll just have to live with paying fair wages to your employees. Get fucked.

Lol, im not an owner dingus.

Ive worked basically every position from busser and expo all the way to exec chef and gm and am currently a bartender. I can sayy with first hand knowledge that wages go down when switched from a tipped system to a non tipped system.

I guess first hand knowledge of the industry counts for nothing when a bunch of tech bros on lemmy know more than me.

Edit: makes me sad that people who want worker reform would want to support owner suppression of wages.

I know it doesnt fit your neat little box, but it is facts.

So go ahead and explain exactly where thr money is lost. Does the restaurant make less money now? Is an owner incapable of paying their employees the equivalent of what they made with tips?

You said you know all of this so intimately, so lay it out for us idiots.

Ok, I’ll lay out for all of you idiots.

In our current system, customers almost directly pay wages for servers and chefs, and it stays tied to menu prices. Thus, wages go up when prices go up.

In this suggested system, you trust the ownership class to raise wages for some reason because that works fantastically in the United States.

Im not sure why you’re suggesting that because the capitalist class will always, always, always bleed whatever they can dry. You know that, i know that the railworkers in the us know that.

Like come on, use your tiny tiny brain that apparently can’t multiple 50 times .2 and think about this for a second. This will and has absolutely led to wage suppression because they will absolutely not raise wages once they are set.

It’s crazy to me that so many people on a sub called “work reform” are advocating for the ownership class and lowering wages. Like, why do you think we’re all here???

Fuck.

The ideal situation would be unions, but no one here has suggested that for some reason, maybe its because no one in this conversation, with the exception of myself, has ever stepped foot onto a restaurant floor with intent to work outside of the one time they washed dishes at an applebees when they were 16.

I feel like im taking fuckin crazy pills with the amount of capitialist bullshit im reading here.

Whats wrong with all of you???

People don’t want to do math when they are going to get a food or beer, that’s the owners job… Is it that hard to understand?

Restaurant owners will increase prices with inflation because it means more profits. Restaurant owners are also notorious for stealing tips and wage theft.

And restaurants that ended tipping (some have) have happier wait staff and management.

Do you own a restaurant?

Do you have a source on that statement?

I do not own a restaurant but am a worker, bartender specifically.

Every restaurant that i know of or have worked in that switches to a non-tipped wage leads to suppressed/lower wages, and that’s from someone who has intimate access to the books.

Pay is definitely more consistent but not as high on average by design.

Well you can do a shitty version of anything. There are gains to be had switching to a non-tipped pay structure, but its up to the owner to distribute it fairly. Sounds like in your examples the owner collected the extra money themselves.

Its nuts to me how many people in this thread support and trust the ownership class.

A place to discuss positive changes that can make work more equitable, and to vent about current practices. We are NOT against work; we just want the fruits of our labor to be recognized better.

Our Philosophies:

All workers must be paid a living wage for their labor.
Income inequality is the main cause of lower living standards.
Workers must join together and fight back for what is rightfully theirs.
We must not be divided and conquered. Workers gain the most when they focus on unifying issues.

Our Goals

Higher wages for underpaid workers.
Better worker representation, including but not limited to unions.
Better and fewer working hours.
Stimulating a massive wave of worker organizing in the United States and beyond.
Organizing and supporting political causes and campaigns that put workers first.

Restaurant group in Massachusetts is trying to reject a public vote on paying tipped workers(lemmy.world)

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