My response is always is it not human nature for many to be violent towards others and yet few would say that’s ok. The answer is simple, humans are fundementally more then their base instincts and desires. If humanity were nothing more then animals then society as we know it would have never formed.
Based response, even though I wouldn’t say I’m a communist, more social democratic
Yeah you realize that Democracy is much larger than the United States of America. Many democracies around the world, which have been historically regarded as stable democracies, don’t have a separate election for their top leader. That’s a pretty American thing. Most democratic top leaders are selected by the ruling party, not the electorate. It’s just assumed that your vote about who is top leader is rolled into your vote for your local representative for that level of government.
The rest of the world looked at that and thought ‘and? What’s the problem? We do that shit all the time and it works out.’ Granted most democratic world leaders don’t have as many powers granted to them as the United States grants their President but still. In a bigger perspective it’s not a big deal.
Communism is against human nature.
Along with every social construct that we make including laws and traditions. We make these rules precisely to counter the human nature in an attempt to create a better society, though not all are by intentional design. What is good for an isolated sole single individual is very different for a whole society and a prosperous society benefits individuals to have different opportunities than a lone actor. For example, a society where you aren’t constantly worried about theft allows you to engage in trade more freely and thus able to trade more. The act of limiting personal freedom (nature) to steal, in turn, allowed society to have an increase in ability to trade.
What is closer to human nature is going to be more easily accepted by humans. And free market is closer to nature than communism. That is why it was invented first and what has set place first. If communism is indeed what society as a whole feels is better for society, they will constantly shift towards it. Some may argue similar to Canada or Scandinavian countries. Though I wouldn’t define what they’re shifting to as communism because countries like Sweden, Denmark, etc. score higher than USA in economic freedom index (free market). But, that discussion would go off course from topic of what is true communism which has no end.
Last 2 panels of the OP’s memes refer more greatly to individual actions rather than societal actions. I’m sure certain individuals will help and be charitable. Though as a whole would be obviously less than communism since certain definitions of communism would be a mathematical maximum of reduction of poor due to equalization.
The last two panels refer to structuring society based on the expectation that wealthy people will share, which is basically the trickle down argument.
That interpretation seems more like your own opinion rather than the opinion of those who actually say that. I see little causal relevance between charity and trickle down economics.
You have to think more impartially to understand why these two train of thoughts have little to no intersection. Do you know why these people you’re characterizing are saying “people are generous”? Because like you said, greed is simultaneously said. If you get it, you’ll see it’s not about trickle down.
Additionally the general right wing argument for the structuring society around volunteer charity over forced social care is that volunteer format is enough from the view of the giver, not that they will get enough from the view of the receiver. If that happens to be nothing, they’re saying so be it. If that happens to be a lot, that’s great. The argument is also about having the option to choose where they help rather than a government body choosing it… Though I don’t think individuals could possibly know though to choose well.
I am not making an argument for the right or left. I’m just fixing the polarized viewpoint of the other party.
What I’m saying is that regardless how you frame this, what it comes down in tangible terms is trickle down. The argument is that it’s fine for the wealth to become concentrated with a small minority of the population because they will share it voluntarily. This is demonstrably not the case in practice.
Bro why is it always you when I go on lemmy arguing on a fucking meme page in favor of communism. Get a life man!
(You are mixing economic systems with market systems - as if communism can’t have free markets or that capitalism can’t come up with a law that 99% of the profits must be shared as bonuses to all workers)
How do you know free market is closer to human nature (which isn’t a thing)?
Especially when more than 99% of the time humans lived is socialist communes (ie communism).
(Not to mention most animals live in communistic systems, and none have free-markets.)
And especially when even in free markets vast majority of the people (workers) don’t really participate in it directly.
Also humans with their blood thought and achieved that free market isn’t a thing, that we have governments that regulate at minimum things that just cannot ever work in a free market.
Thats a bit like a mediaeval peasant saying its ‘human nature’ to want feudalism.
And a bit like saying revolutions and socioeconomic system changes arent in human nature.
Even the argument of human greediness isn’t an argument for capitalism - the system decides what you are greedy for (capital in capitalism, land in feudalism, commune (respect) in communism, seashells in seashellsism).
In each -ism you can be greedy.
Complete communism can’t have free market by definition. And complete free market can’t have laws to redistribute profits. That is the definition of these words. The theoretical maximum definition obviously differs from actual application as nothing is applied in a complete sense.
Revolutions and socioeconomic systems aren’t human nature. Along with all your above examples. My entire point is that there is a difference between individual human nature and the societal nature. Your point of human nature wanting feudalism is opposite of my point. I’m stating that EVERY SINGLE social construct you can imagine or think of is not of the individual nature but the societal one, including feudalism. And that less of construct you require is closer to human nature. More construct required is further away from human nature. That is, communism requires greater management by the society than the free market to exist, and thus is further from human nature. You may choose to define “human nature” differently, but this is how I see it.
I don’t think you realise how much effort systems invest into their own existence. I don’t know how to begin to compare that.
Do you equate free market (what market?) with lawlessness?
That is, is robbery part of free market then? Or why not?
Im assuming you mean taxes also arent free market? In which case I wonder why other infrastructure should be. Why would any laws or police be part of the free market?
In the basic sense communism is to share labour profits by default, and there are plenty examples of that in nature. On the other hand I can’t really come up an example of free market - perhaps when they introduced money to monkeys and they immediately used it for sex (but I don’t recall there being much talk about pricing). They did the same when birds and they just communismed it (or remained as communist as before within a certain group I assume, taking moneys just as one of the resources).
What is in human nature is to adapt to circumstances - which includes various systems and infrastructure.
And people adapt quickly to good things as well as to bad things. Shockingly quickly in both cases.
The same with animals.
What is much harder is to go against the system & change it (like the actual system, not just the leaders or vips).
There are two arguments being combined here. The first half is regarding the free rider problem within a theoretical communist society. The second is regarding care of the less fortunate within a voluntaryist society. They are both valid arguments without proven answers outside of theory.
They’re both invalid arguments with proven answers throughout history. The free rider problem hasn’t existed in Communists states any more than in capitalist ones, meanwhile we know for a fact that trickle down economics does not work.
They’re both invalid arguments with proven answers throughout history. The free rider problem hasn’t existed in Communists states any more than in capitalist ones, meanwhile we know for a fact that trickle down economics does not work.
Your post isn’t an answer to either argument nor has anything been “proven”. Communism is a stateless society, and I can’t think of a time that has existed before the birth of nations. The free rider problem is what happens in a communist society when those who decide not to contribute become a burden upon those who do. Trickle down economics has nothing to do with charitable giving within a voluntary market-driven society, but is a term used to describe stronger economic growth based on reduced tax burdens for the upper economic class.
Free rider problem is made up. Stateless classless societies have obviously existed throughout history. Every small tribal society is basically that. Meanwhile, the “voluntary” market-driven society is what liberal capitalism is. It doesn’t work.
There is no such thing as human nature only human habit
