I also think Java is shit, but if you manage to get a NullPointerException while writing a hello world program, maybe anon is just not cut out for computers?
I always loved that Java has a NullPointerException but doesn’t have the concept of pointers in the language (only references).
Java
Thats your first mistake bucko
Can anyone who’s actually dealt with Java tell me how much Anon is exaggerating?
I’ve worked on a corporate project with multiple Java services, anon isn’t really exaggerating. Java can be a hell scape at times
They forgot to mention that production Java applications apparently need to log a certain minimum number of completely meaningless stacktraces per hour to work properly. Or at least I assume that is the case from the fact that all of them do that.
Best with an old and vulnerable log4j on a Windows log server.
We don’t know what’ll happen if we update. And we don’t know if the dude who coded it will answer our calls. YOLO!
You would be surprised, errors right out of the box on a freshly initialized project aren’t uncommon
I’m pretty sure Java doesn’t have pointers, so writing a hello world application isn’t gonna fuck up nearly that hard.
The one thing he forgot though is that your source file is probably in the folder
com/companyname/net/classes/factory/factoryfactory/worker/lib/bin/refresh/jdk/model/ui/closebutton/press.java
And spread out among a bunch of other directories, and the java file is like…3 lines. But there are 10k files spread all around directories like this that are all 3 lines a piece with a class definition.
wait, so when .io gets deregistered, are a load of companies going to have to rename their root directories and rewrite all of their include statements?
Thankfully, despite naming them like that, it doesn’t actually seem to have any real purpose. Apparently they just wanted to make sure that different companies making different libraries didn’t accidentally use the same name for their project…
I’ve been programming in Java professionally for 11 years. It’s not just embellishment, it’s outright lying.
Threads giving you race conditions? All concurrent programming will do that if you’re shit at it.
Java has come a long way. I will admit that UI in Java is terrible. I would never do that.
Been coding Java for about 15 years now. Pretty much agree - anon’s primary mistake was using javaFX. From a junior dev perspective I can see why they’d do that, but Java isn’t really meant for building desktop applications, it’s meant to power web apps.
What they should have done instead is create a backend restful web service and wire up a frontend rest client with something suited to web app ui dev such as angular or react. Java has some awesome frameworks built for it over the years, something like spring boot would make building that backend service trivial if you know how to use it. JAX-RS/Jersey or even servlets could be utilized for this instead, if you wanted to.
Spring boot has some nice tooling for thread management, but Java also has pretty good options for this built in as well. As chunky mentioned, if you aren’t already versed in concurrency patterns, don’t try to perform concurrent operations or you’re gonna have a bad time. But do learn how to do this, because exploiting concurrency is one of the golden rules of good computing.
What they should have done instead is create a backend restful web service and wire up a frontend rest client with something suited to web app ui dev such as angular or react.
If anon’s program was designed to work as a client for some external server or if Java had absolutely no GUI frameworks, that would be fine. But if anon’s goal was to create a simple desktop application, doing this would be the programming equivalent of a Rube Goldberg machine.
With that approach, you also need to be really careful about how you do it. Fuck that part up and you can end up with the locally-hosted REST server listening on the device’s public network interface or vulnerable to CSRF from a web page opened in the user’s browser.
It’s not accurate to accuse Anon of “lying,” when both their story and yours would point to the race conditions from threads being a symptom of someone who’s just learning the language.
It’s not that serious though; because it’s a greentext, it is both artificial AND homosexual.
Threads giving you race conditions? All concurrent programming will do that if you’re shit at it.
Well, if you write Rust then there won’t be race conditions.
Rust is great, and I truly mean that. But saying you can’t get race conditions in Rust is just not true.
And also, not everything is going to be written in Rust. When the company you’re working for needs a web application quickly, that’s better done in other languages.
And also also, Spring has a lot of niceties when it comes to concurrency that make this much less of a point.
95% exaggeration. Here is reality:
- yeah you need main class coz it’s OO-language. Though, not required anymore, which should’ve been done once Java got scrip language capabilities (jshell) back in JDK 9. But as of today not required anymore
- imports exist in most if not all languages. Gotta be insane writing them manually in 2010 let alone 2024
- installing Java runtime (JRE) is as simple as installing any app. Though for installing JDK you need 5 mins for setting PATH. Think about JDK as like TSC or Webpack and JRE as a Browser. I’d argue installing and configuring JDK is simpler than TSC or Webpack
- Unless you doing some non-trivial multi-threading your stack trace will tell you exactly where is your NPE. You gotta be as blind as my teammates to spend more than 1 minutes to find where it is coz it literally tells you file and line numer where Exception occurred
- I mean, yeah if you use IDE from 2000 it will look like it. IntelliJ looks modern, though I don’t like the fact latest versions look like VSCode
- I hardly reach 3G of deps from all 10 projects I have on my workstation.
- IDK what anon means by ecosystem here, Java ecosystem is quite standard across the board. JDK(std lib), Maven/Gradle(deps, build, publishing), Spring Framework (all sorts of blueprints and solutions to standard app level problems), Hibernate/JPA (ORM), JUnit+Mockito (testing). These are tools and libs used in 90% of projects I worked on. Of course there will be more depending on project needs. Layers? It’s not like language imposes any layers whatsoever. It’s just common practice to have 3-4 layers and some glue in-between.
- don’t do GUI in Java it sucks and will suck until Java gets string interpolation. Hopefully soon
- concurrency is actually the only thing which is really bloated in Java. Which will change with next LTS version if I remember correctly. And it’s not that hard if you actually read the f manual and not just “try and hope”. Again it will become much more efficient and easier to follow soon. As of now - yeah, not trivial. But people mostly prematurely optimize, so karma
- Java is kinda have 20 ways to do same thing but actually no. Java built with idea of providing simple building blocks. Then it provides more specific API built on top of those building blocks. It allows to have API which solves typical problems and provides capability to solve custom problems with those building blocks. People often confuse this as many ways to do one thing but it’s like saying “I can have byte array why I need string data type”. Those are different levels of abstraction
Edit: typos
- a hello world doesn’t need libraries in Java
- installing JDK takes at most 5 steps, depending on the OS
- a nullpointerexception is more likely the developper’s fault (unassigned value, calling a function on a null object)
- IntelliJ is easy to install and modern (granted, other IDEs are very ancient)
- developping GUI apps is a PITA, no matter the ecosystem (generally)
The rest is more or less spot on (no idea about concurrency issues though)
nullpointerexception is more likely the developper’s fault
Of course it was the developer’s fault. But it’s absurd a language without pointers throws an error about pointers.
The date of the post is from this week so it’s not accurate at all. Java does support main outside of a class now, and it doesn’t need to be static, or take args. You wouldn’t use JavaFX in this day and age either. Installing the jdk is absolutely nothing especially if you’re using IntelliJ as it will install it for you and manage everything. No library is even close to 3gb.
This entire post sounds like it was written by someone that last touched Java in 2010.
Source: am a Kotlin dev. Java sucks. None of these are the reasons why.
Java is religiously backwards compatible. Modern java projects are not as enterprisey and boilerplatey, but, as jdk21 is backwards compatible with jdk1.3, you can still happily write code as if it’s 2003.
Additionally, the java space is huge, so just wildly googling will probably not help you that much.
Is that why every single application will only work with some ancient version of Java?(usually 8, sometimes 1.6 or 11)
I can’t think of many cases where Java 21 is a drop in replacement, and I don’t think I anyone actually used 17.
That’s entirely the fault of applications (or more likely their libraries) using internal APIs or JNI. As long as it isn’t doing anything screwy with reflection and class loading or using the sun.* packages that aren’t part of the language specification, Java bytecode compiled for ancient Java versions will still work on modern versions.
I have developed in java and C/C++ (many years) and Anon is maybe exaggerating a bit but not lying, we all have been there more or less.
Personally I hate how java forces you into bad architectural choices. Where is the unsigned int? Why isn’t an int a class BTW? Why the pass by copy for some, by reference for others? Where is multi inheritance? Lots of things are dumbed down or you have no choice in the matter.
Sure didn’t help it was a power hungry beast moving at snail speed back in the day too.
I mean they are lying because Java does support main as a top level function now. If this was written last year, sure. Also IntelliJ will literally install the jdk and manage it for you. Using asdf I haven’t had to touch the PATH for Java in probably over a decade (used sdkman before that).
This entire post sounds like someone that last touched Java in 2010 and wanted to complain about it again. Java is shit, but for none of the reasons in the post.
It’s easy to accuse a noob of making the wrong choices when you have the experience necessary to make the right ones. There are a ton of outdated guides on the internet for every programming language. I’m almost certain there is some school kid downloading an old Borland C++ version right now, because the youtube video from 2010, regurgitating a tutorial from 2004 said so.
Only have a beginner perspective, but in school I did really well in intro CS class that used Python. 2nd class was in Java and it almost broke me I was so confused.
It’s much better today, but in 2010 that was 100% accurate.
That being said, using Java as a first time programming language is like a 15 year old trying to fly an airliner to get a few blocks away to pick up some after school snacks. Obviously it’s way overkill. Sure you could get across town with it, but it’s probably 1000x more complicated than just a simple bicycle or even walking.
Java is industrial strength for professionals. There’s absolutely no consideration made for educational usage.
Which other eco system has more stable libraries, which are easy to install and redistribute and deploy?
I would choose always choose the most boring language for the task. That the good thing about java that it is very boring and most likely won’t run into a obscure problem if you stay away from reflection and unsafe.
Concurrency isn’t bad, and package management (while maven is absolutely terrible to work generally), the dependency chains aren’t exceptionally bad. Getting it installed is easier than python on platforms it’s not already there on, not because it’s more portable, but because the installers do more for you. Portability is hard, they haven’t done it well but they’ve paved the default use case pretty well (although that works against you when you get to harder cases)
But the rest is pretty close.
The worst is the scaffolding, it’s literally superstition for years to gain the understanding as to why you’re doing it. I took two years of Java in high school before getting a degree - it was 4 years and halfway through a degree before I understood why I was making a class with a method main(string[] args). It works like that because your entry class calls the main method with a list of string arguments… I didn’t understand at all, because even though it’s simple it’s a special case, and I’d never seen anyone name the string array anything different, so I just copied and pasted it, never understanding it because I’d been told “you just have to have that” for do long
Builds are arcane too - there’s still companies that only use netbeans in their build pipeline, Android still requires a specific an old Java version in conjunction with the IDE or a gradle build, at best a project uses maven (the package manager), which is xml based and full of arcane details that are best treated as a magic incantation to be copied exactly from elsewhere
If you’ve never used Eclipse, which I assume it was referencing, it does feel old, clunky, and ugly out-of-the-box (to me at least). I tried to use IntelliJ wherever possible, but a previous company had a project that really didn’t like to run from it but would with a very specific setup in Eclipse (I don’t recall any details now more than 10 years later).
There is a fair bit of boilerplate and bloat.
I don’t remember UI stuff being so bad, but most of what I worked with was old Swing/AWT stuff. I did have to use JavaFX (I think it was?) once and remember something about it being frustrating, but it was for some existing thing I had to modify.
I don’t mind Java so much, but it’s certainly not my favorite language.
I don’t know how one gets a nullPointer when doing a hello world, though. I’m guessing this is embellishment or mashing together something later with their initial printing of hello since I think you’d come up with some other error in that process to getting something to print before nullPointer.
It certainly can be that bad.
https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition
For the “simple” apps anon is talking about, they are exaggerating a lot. Though, when you get beyond the obligatory “Hello World” and “a window with a button”, the complexity does start to increase exponentially.
Throwing in frameworks like Spring or JavaFX does make things more complicated. But it’s still relatively manageable once you get used to it and know what goes where and when.
Now the whole configuration thing, that’s an art form best left to those hooded “seniors”. It’s good to learn eventually, but not when you first start out; lest you have a fetish for pain.
Java has come a long way. It’s not the languages fault that people create monstrosities like AbstractJavaFinalSerializedFactory or whatever. But if you do want to be “good” at Java, you will want to learn about design patterns. It also doesn’t hurt to have a thick skin too, because you’ll be both criticized and made fun of for your choices. 😊
Am I weird for liking Java? I feel like it just makes so much more sense than other languages.
C# is nearly the same, but much, much better.
- It doesn’t (usually) come with the Java culture 8 layers of abstraction. This isn’t in the Java language. This isn’t in OO. Yet nearly every Java programmer makes things way more complicated than it needs to be.
- It’s a prettier language. Similar syntax with less bullshit.
- It’s open source
- It’s still multiplatform. Modern dotnet / C# works on anything.
- Both Visual Studio and Visual Studio code are great IDEs that blow Eclipse out of the water
- It’s one of the most common business languages.
- It’s going to be supported forever.
If I could restrict the world of programming to two languages, it’d be C# and Rust. C# for most things and Rust for a lower level language.
Nah, C# suffers from a lot of the same shit Java does. Needing everything to be a class is just no longer a good design choice (if it ever was). AOT support is still lacking. I don’t get, why it does not have typdefs. I think the solution / project structure is unnecessary and I could probably think of more stuff I dislike about C#. But imho, it still beats Java.
Golang is my choice over C# any time. I strongly prefer how interfaces are handled and I actually like the error handling.
Needing everything to be a class
In 2015 they added scripting. If you’re making a real project, you should absolutely use classes. (It’s not that hard. Don’t do the Java shit.) But you can absolutely write one off scripts just fine.
AOT support is still lacking.
Publishing your app as Native AOT produces an app that’s self-contained and that has been ahead-of-time (AOT) compiled to native code. Source.
I strongly prefer how interfaces are handled
It’s better than Java, but they still chose to walk headfirst into the same trap that bites Java developers in the ass: associating interface implementations with the struct/class rather than the interface itself.
When you have two interfaces that each require you to implement a function with the same name but a different signature, you’re in for a bad time featuring an abomination of wrapper types.
Edit: Clarity.
Is there anything I can read about how we’re moving away from everything being a class?
I like how straight-forward the syntax is. And it also seems orderly to have everything be a class. There’s a system to it.
I’m using C++ for a project now and I like it in a similar way, but there’s more freedom (everything doesn’t HAVE to be a class). So with C++ I’ll never go back to Java (unless it’s for a job).
No. Every language has its haters. There’s a reason Java is so widely used. If you like it, keep at it.
Yes and the reason is because millions of lines of production code were written and it isn’t worth rewriting them.
Plenty of languages around now that don’t have 30 years of baggage and the specter of Oracle hanging over it.
Now a days many businesses choose Go.
Now a days many businesses choose Go.
Many companies may choose something other than Java, but Java is still the behemoth.
Such a decision is taken when the company is completely new or if it is a green field project.
Even in the case of the latter, companies just choose to stick with their existing tech (read: expertise and experience of their tech teams)…
I thought I like Java until I tried Kotlin. It’s everything I liked about Java, but with everything wrong with it fixed.
I used to be very into Java and Kotlin looks nice. What’s your favorite IDE?
I am a certified Java hater, but you’re allowed to like it. If simple and objected oriented is what you want, I can see the attraction, and it has a good and mature ecosystem.
The ecosystem is java’s biggest asset. C# is actually a pretty decent language to develop in but the ecosystem just pales. Zookeeper for example doesn’t have an official client. But one guy ported the Java client but it hasn’t been updated in years. Maybe it’s recently because I moved on from that job.
Honestly I would consider that a bit weird. At the very least, old-fashioned. If you like Java, it makes me think you haven’t tried a better more modern language to compare it with.
No, Java has lots of merits. For example, once you know layout managers, you can have a resizable GUI app in no time. It’s the exact opposite of arranging things pixel by pixel. You just define “I want a grid of these buttons south and a big text field in the center” and Java will do the rest. I whip up apps like this for the silliest things, like noting which dungeon has what rotating boss this week in a game, so it’s more convinient than noting it in a text file.
I might have agreed a decade or two ago, when I knew no better. But today, I find the tribalism surrounding programming languages comical.
I don’t particularly like Java, but I use it because it pays the bills. Similarly, I use C++ (which I prefer) when my work requires it.
I don’t particularly like Java, but I use it because it pays the bills. Similarly, I use C++ (which I prefer) when my work requires it.
I mean, anon is not arguing against that. They’re saying the language is shit regardless of how much it is used in business. I don’t think they are entirely wrong.
Tell us more ancient one, your heroic tale of “giving up against the endless weight of capitalism” is fascinating.
“giving up against the endless weight of capitalism”
We just call it “having a job” nowadays
Love the dramatics.
This ancient one has learned the art of pragmatism. A little time in the trenches of enterprise development can do that – turn passionate ideals into practical choices.
Some days it’s C++, some days it’s Java, Python and so on. In the end, the code compiles, and the ancient one get paid.
