Is there a line I need to get into for the chance to be the next person to repost this?
This is lacking info. I can think of a lot of scenarios where the boss is justified.
What if the boss had granted some PTO for someone else and this person said FU I’m not coming in either. In that scenario I’d definitely fire them too. If I can’t count on you so I can give other people time off then I don’t need you.
Normalize businesses having enough employees that they can take their time whenever they want as long as notice is far enough out. Or people can call in sick without a replacement being required because you were already operating with a couple “extra” people.
And definitely normalize closing on holidays. The sheer number of American employers that require holiday work means it’s not actually a holiday unless you’re wealthy enough. If you absolutely, holy shit, must be open for a holiday, hire people who don’t celebrate it. Maintaining a diverse staff means you can give holidays to the requisite groups without worry. Just put it on the application, “check the box for each holiday you must have off”.
Small businesses cannot afford a few extra people on staff.
It will be worth it if big corporations start taking care of people properly, but one side effect will be that all the small businesses who already struggle to compete with the big corporations will get completely crushed.
Fair enough that if your business model cannot afford to properly compensate the workers then you deserve to go out of business, but due to capitalism, all small businesses fall in to this category.
Only large corporations can survive the transition into properly compensating workers. Sad all around.
If your business cannot afford employees then your business model is not competitive.
If small business, as a whole, is not competitive then we need to get the trust busting stick out again and break these retail giants down to size. I for one look forward to all of the baby Amazons.
Im not saying to not give people off. All I’m saying is there is no context here. From personal experience most people are selfish and there needs to be some kind of structure when giving PTO. Everyone should have an opportunity to be off but many places can’t shut down their business for 2 weeks because the home sports team made the playoffs. Again I’m speaking from experience. Some people need to be told no so that someone else that earned it or asked earlier can be off.
And just to add this but hiring so anyone can be off at anytime is not possible. You are essentially saying it’s ok to discriminate. For example if my business is in a predominantly Christian community many employees will want to be off on Sunday but that is a peak day because after church many people want to eat at my restaurant. Should I then reject any applications from Christian’s so I ensure I am staffed?
Hiring for availability is 100 percent a thing. I’ve filled out an availability chart at every retail job I ever worked. They don’t ask why you aren’t available and it’s about making sure they can cover all of their positions. Discrimination is when you refuse to hire someone because of their religion, and having a bunch of people that are that religion already on staff is generally a pretty good indicator it’s not because of their religion.
It’s absolutely possible to hire so that someone can call off without causing a chain reaction that kills the schedule and triggers over time. Employers just don’t want to do it.
You don’t earn PTO. It comes in your contract and you can request it whenever you want it. Get out of your American bubble.
I think there’s enough info. Employee put in request. Request denied for biz needs but employee is fired anyways. Boss is a hypocritical asshole.
How are they hypocritical? They said no and gave what they thought was an appropriate consequence.
There is zero context here and if you were running a business and gave anyone off who asked there would be days you would have to close because you are short staffed. It’s very easy to say from your couch what you would do but when you need your business to provide for your family you think a little differently.
Honestly I said that from my toilet. But the point is that businesses that tend to say no to their employees about PTO normally aren’t operating in a way that gives employees the freedom to have a life outside of work. Sure, there’s the odd chance that it’s not the case, but more often than not this is what happens.
The hypocrisy IMO comes from the act of “oh well I couldn’t give you the time off, you took it anyways, so you’re fired.” Which I get from a business perspective bc the employee went against the schedule, but why not find ways to not let your team get to that point. Most small businesses don’t even offer PTO to begin with.
Creating an unhealthy work environment, then punishing your people for it is being a hypocrite.
There is zero context here
So naturally you assume that the guy bragging about firing someone is in the right.
Hey, what if there was a request off. Your other employee gets in a car wreck. You going to make them come in from the hospital since it wasn’t requested off? This situation actually happened to a co-worker. The GM didn’t ask if they were ok, they asked if they could still make it to cover their own lunch.
Shit happens. You deal with it, not retaliate.
PTO != LOA
PTO is like if you got a cold and needed a day or two, LOA is like if a major fucking event/sickness took over and could potentially ruin your life and you have to be out of work for weeks/months/years. With LOA you still get paid, though you may get slightly less than your normal paycheck. Still a paycheck though, and after saving gas from driving in, or saving money from the train/bus/subway, or savings costs of electricity from powering on your PC/heater/AC or whatever else in order to work from home, it almost balances out.
Also, in at least where I’m from, retaliation is illegal and businesses get sued out the ass for it.
Source: Work in the US, have used LOA and PTO, and have seen businesses go down for violating these laws.
No, if you have a cold that should be sick leave, what stupid system do you have in the US?
Imo it’s a given that if someone is in the hospital and asked for some PTO I would grant it without question.
All I’m saying is based on the initial scenario there isn’t enough information to say the boss is wrong to fire the person.
Oh they didn’t ask for pto, they were covering for the person who asked for pto.
I’m just saying EVERY business needs to plan for an employee being out. If that’s hiring a part timer so be it, if that’s a manager covering a shift so be it, if it’s the owner of the company working a register, so be it. Owning/running a business means planning for the unexpected.
It might be that the business had some delivery date for some product and really needed to manpower to do it. Once that manpower failed they renegotiated a new delivery date at a loss, and could make do with less employees until they hire more, so the employee’s presence was not so urgent anymore, and, since they didn’t deliver when necessary, were fired.
I see no hypocrisy here. The owner might be a scumbag for reaching that conclusion but they are no hypocrite for firing them.
Edit: Y’all seem quite pissed with my conditional read of the post, but sure as hell agreed with the other side since the most upvoted comment is calling the boss a hypocrite. Idk man, if you are going to entertain one interpretation of the story but refuse the other one, you are kind of a hypocrite.
They are no hypocrite for firing them assuming your fantasy scenario is reality
Fantasy scenario? have you even worked in consulting and project deadlines? It’s my everyday life.
In any case, let it be clear that the boss is a piece of shit and that although consequences should be in place, firing is way overboard. I’m just being a tad pedantic and saying that no, they are not a hypocrite necessarily.
And I’m being a tad more pedantic pointing out that “they are no hypocrite” and “they are not a hypocrite necessarily” are not the same statement, that one of them is baseless, and that you lead with the baseless one.
As they should… What’s the alternative here? Let the company’s schedule be determined by sporadic PTO usage that they are expected to have no control over?
The alternative is working with your employees to get them the time off they need to the best of your ability instead of hiding behind “the needs of the business”. They don’t give a flying fuck about the needs of your business, especially if you don’t give a fuck about them enough to approve a day off request.
Any time I’ve EVER had trouble accommodating a time off request, I’ve done it in person and it started with me trying to figure out what their time is for so I can work with them on finding a way to accommodate their plans. Or, if it is clear that person 1 must be off, then I can talk to person 2 or 3 with requests and work out a deal with them instead.
Instead of any of this, sounds like this terrible manager simply denied the request in the schedule with no conversation and KNOWS he’s a dick, given the “keep frontin’” comment.
How do those boots taste? Jesus Christ!
I’m happy that in my country we have employment laws and shit like this wouldn’t fly. I put in PTO requests to use my 25 days paid leave they’re always accepted because I don’t work for fucking ghouls.
My company understands that I provide my skills and time in exchange for money and they’re not more important than the individuals that work there. They also realise that a good work life balance is better for employee retention and happiness, meaning that you can keep your best staff and they don’t leave for somewhere that treats you better.
Employment laws don’t protect you from a boss denying PTO because you are needed on that specific date. Imagine having a 24hr devops team. Three guys went drinking together and crashed into a tree last night. They’re fine, but they need checkups and rest, so they have a doctors note. The team now needs to be planned well, but otherwise it is fine. Then someone comes up and says “I need PTO this week”. You tell them “sorry we can’t, too many people are out, we couldn’t get round the clock support like we have in the contract”. And then they leave anyways. And when they leave, the prod suddenly shits itself and there is noone who is there to react for the next 7 hours.
Work life balance doesn’t mean “I get to grab PTO whenever I want to”. That’s why “on demand” days exist.
You do have to give notice for PTO in my country, normally 4 weeks. Although my boss will generallly let me give a weeks notice.
If we’re sick then we just don’t turn in and let them know we’re sick and still get paid.
Edit: To clarify anything that impacts the business outside of these requirements is bad planning or cost cutting on the owners side and not my problem.
What an absolutely insane hypothetical you had to come up with, just to slide your tongue across the muddy sole of a boot.
Imagine having a 24hr devops team
Okay…
Three guys went drinking together and crashed into a tree last night
Okay…
fine. Then someone comes up and says “I need PTO this week”. You tell them “sorry we can’t, too many people are out, we couldn’t get round the clock support like we have in the contract”.
Ok. That’s the companies problems, not the employee requesting PTO
then they leave anyways. And when they leave, the prod suddenly shits itself and there is noone who is there to react for the next 7 hours.
Alright so, here’s my read:
This hypothetical company agreed to providing 24 hour support, then only staffed 4 people in the same geographic area capable of providing that support.
To me this reads like an organization that was fundamentally incapable of providing the product they’re advertising in the first place without abusing their employees
What’s the alternative here? Let the company’s schedule be determined by sporadic PTO usage that they are expected to have no control over?
Yeah, that’s the idea. You give me time off, and you prepare around the dates I give you.
Or I’ll find an employer that respects me as a person, and I’ll quit by ust not showing up anymore because fuck you for denying my PTO request. Don’t disrespect me while also telling me that you can’t survive without me. You’re just telling me that I can ruin things for you by leaving without notice, and giving me the motive to do it.
The alternative is not failing the logistics skill check you’re ostensibly supposed to be good at as a manager. If you’re in such dire straits as a business that you cannot possibly approve PTO, your problem will not be fixed firing the employee who at least did you the courtesy of warning you that they wouldn’t be available that day.
That’s literally what a manager’s job is. To manage the personnel so that they have a full staff. That’s why we put in time off notices two months in advance, at least.
Oh, and if you aren’t paying well above market rate, a time off notice is just that. I’m not requesting shit. I’m notifying you that no matter what you do, I won’t be there, and you need to do your job.
Have to make an example.