Fear Mongering About Range Anxiety Has To Stop — CT Governor Calls Out EV Opponents::Several state governors are fighting fear mongering as they attempt to reduce transportation emissions in their states.
This article doesn’t really touch on the biggest issue of getting into an EV - the price tag. I mean, $26k to get into an entry-level model? I paid $11k for my SUV, and the only reason I could afford that was due to a pay-out from the company that totaled my previous vehicle. Show me a used EV with towing and storage capacity more in the range of $6k that I can expect to drive for twenty years with basic maintenance and you might get me interested.
Beyond that, they claim that an EV is cheaper to maintain over the years? OK I’ve been driving my used SUV for 15 years now and I’ve spent less than a grand on replacing parts (not including stuff like tires that are going to be replaced on any vehicle). My previous vehicle was driven for 24 years and cost even less to maintain because it didn’t have 4WD. It looks like within these time periods I would have expected to replace EV batteries several times (most estimates put battery lifetime between 8-15 years), and how much would that have cost? I understand that most people can’t be bothered to learn how to perform even the most basic maintenance tasks and believe that you need to buy a new car every 5 years, but I would like to see realistic maintenance estimates for those of us who don’t treat our vehicles like a piece of disposable tupperware.
I’d prefer to compare used to used, but looking around online at what’s available in my area, the cost of most used EVs appears to start around $15,000 for these tiny compact cars that would never be useful to me. The cheapest was a Nissan Leaf for $7500 with a listed range of 84 miles – hell we couldn’t even visit many of our friends in that distance! The more reasonable sized cars (at least judging by the pictures) like a Kia Niro or maybe a Nissan Ariya which have ranges over 200 miles start around $30,000 and go up very quickly from there. So yeah, even comparing used prices puts these vehicles way outside my price range.
You’re not going to get any ev that’s good at towing, so get that off your list right now. In regards to used EVs for 6k, they’re all over the place. Just look for Nissan leafs or Priuses.
most estimates put battery lifetime between 8-15 years
That’s until it’s at like 85-95% capacity. Ev batteries will last for decades no problem. And if you had that little maintenance on your car then you’re just not taking care of it. Oil literally would cost over a thousand dollars just by itself, so if you’re not replacing the oil you’re irreparably damaging your vehicle. (12k miles a year, replace minimum every 6k miles unless you’ve done an oil test and have a custom timeline, $30-50 each time, so $100 a year minimum on just one thing).
I’m sorry but your numbers just outright do not add up at all. You clearly either abused your car and actually didn’t maintain it, or you maintained it and have no clue the true cost.
The estimates I saw for battery life were talking about replacement time, not just ranging to a minimal capacity. Even discussions I’ve read on reddit have basically had most people stating that if you buy a used EV the batteries would likely need replaced. I don’t have anything to go on for realistic expectations except the statements from people who have owned an EV.
I’ve been using full synthetic in my SUV, it’s good for 20k miles or more so I replace it every couple years at a cost of around $60. So around $450 so far? I changed oil in my old car a little less frequently with plain dino oil, so that was maybe $400 through a lifetime of around 300k miles.
And sure, there are minor costs like replacing the spark plugs every decade, I spent $80 on a new power steering pump for the SUV and I need to pick up a new coolant thermostat soon. I don’t remember if I replaced the belt on my truck or my wife’s car, and they get new batteries every 5+ years as needed. Oh and I had to replace the transmission on the old car, that cost all of $250 to pick up from a junk yard. So yeah, there’s a few other things I didn’t add in. Now what kind of maintenance has to be done on an EV, and what kind of prices are you looking at for replacement parts?
The estimates I saw for battery life were talking about replacement time, not just ranging to a minimal capacity. Even discussions I’ve read on reddit have basically had most people stating that if you buy a used EV the batteries would likely need replaced. I don’t have anything to go on for realistic expectations except the statements from people who have owned an EV.
That’s because people are obsessed with long ranges. You don’t need long range. EVs last plenty fine, even with reduced distance. Undecided with Matt Ferrell has covered this a lot.
I’ve been using full synthetic in my SUV, it’s good for 20k miles or more so I replace it every couple years at a cost of around $60. So around $450 so far? I changed oil in my old car a little less frequently with plain dino oil, so that was maybe $400 through a lifetime of around 300k miles.
You’re damaging your car. You should be changing your oil at minimum every 6k miles. 20k is ridiculous. 6k is the number for full synthetic, 3-4k is for non synthetic. Project farm covers this and does a ton of tests to show you why.
And sure, there are minor costs like replacing the spark plugs every decade, I spent $80 on a new power steering pump for the SUV and I need to pick up a new coolant thermostat soon. I don’t remember if I replaced the belt on my truck or my wife’s car, and they get new batteries every 5+ years as needed. Oh and I had to replace the transmission on the old car, that cost all of $250 to pick up from a junk yard. So yeah, there’s a few other things I didn’t add in. Now what kind of maintenance has to be done on an EV, and what kind of prices are you looking at for replacement parts?
$0 dollars. Windshield washer fluid is all I’ve had to touch. On our towing truck I had to replace a gas line from gas destroying the line. Gas vehicles are soooo much more expensive in every single way. There’s a ton of studies on this dude.
Maybe you are lucky with your car, and know how to maintain yourself. We spent already 3000$ on repairs on our 2010 car and we have it for only 5 years. And there is more to be done (dampers, belts, corrosion on exhaust…). Even with knowledge and equipment (which I do not have) engines are complicated to maintain, at least here in europe with our anti pollution regulations, older motors are more robust but are now banned from cities. EV is a good solution for city/suburbs people with small range needs as less maintainance is needed. Better solution is bike and trains…
You’re not going to get any ev that’s good at towing, so get that off your list right now. The problem is - like in my super long comment down below - It’s hard to sell people on go from 1 vehicle that does 100% of my use cases now to 1 vehicle that does 95% of my use cases. This is just inherently a hard sell.
What I do is I have an extra truck for towing, which I rarely need to use - but it’s not cheap to do this, and many people can’t or won’t. But even then, having a “good for commuting only” vehicle is an even harder sell. I know people who do this, but that can be hard to hit IMHO. While all you need and all you miss with towing is… towing, a “good commuter car” might well be something that is small, 2WD, and doesn’t really have cargo space or back seats. Many people however have young kids (need pretty large car seats), or want to take 3-4 people on trips, or want to go shopping for stuff and minimize the needed delivery fees, or have bad weather and want AWD/4WD. It’s easy to get a truck or SUV that does all of that AND towing, but it’s hard to get an economical EV that does all of that minus towing.
You got your current car for 11k but expext an EV to cost you 6k. Why is that? Shouldn’t you expect the EV to also cost in the same range as 11k to make it a fair comparison?
In terms of battery replacement, have you calculated after how many miles the battery replacement becomes “free” because of gas savings? This changes for everyone based on their electricity prices and whether they have solar.
Because I got the current SUV from a dealership with all the attached mark-ups and fees, at a time when similar models were selling used for about half that cost. However because I had the money available I was willing to splurge on getting exactly the one I was looking for. Also, an EV is not an SUV, and certainly not 4WD with the stronger frame to support off-road use, so it shouldn’t cost as much. I actually bought my wife’s car, a 2006 Murano with 4WD, for $6000 from a dealership, so even that has more capability and probably more cargo space that a typical EV. My baseline is how much vehicle I can get for that price range.
[Edit] Sorry… as far as “free” is concerned, well that never really happens, does it? Yes I could get solar installed on my house, but that costs as much as the car and wouldn’t likely get paid off before the car itself fell apart or was hopelessly obsolete. Since COVID I only have to drive in to the office two days a week now, so I’d be lucky if I even put 3500 miles a year on my SUV now, which is around $750/year in gas. A conservative estimate on solar installation is around $15,000 which means I would have to drive the EV and be completely powered by my own solar charger for 20 years to pay off the solar panels, and in that amount of time the solar panels themselves would likely fail from age or hail and need to be replaced (although hopefully the technology would have improved by then). Also note that because of the dense trees in my neighborhood, I’m not even confident I have enough of my roof in direct sunlight to power the house itself. Yeah it’s something I’ve looked in to, and while I could save a lot of money by building the solar installation myself, I’m still not sure I could get enough power even if I cover every inch of roof that sees Summer sunlight for more than a couple hours. Free ‘gas’ just isn’t going to happen unless I cut down my own trees, and convince several neighbors to also cut down theirs.
You have not considered some aspects. You have concluded that solar is only used for charging the EV and that it doesn’t power your house. Realistically nobody does that. Your solar beakeven should be converted to calculate how much time it takes to save 15k from both your electricity bill + gas savings. Then the whole equation becomes,
battery replacement cost + solar cost = (annual electricity bill + fuel cost) * x number of years
Only then can you know if the breakeven period is a save or a loss.
Ignoring solar, what’s the breakeven like when you charge the vehicle from grid? (With night time prices if you have such a tarrif/discount)
The curse and trap of being poor - or Vimes law of boots. If you only have $5,000 to get a vehicle, doesn’t matter if your ROI is bad over time, your choice is bad ROI and a vehicle, or no vehicle. I really hope used EVs start to get parity with used ICEs, but I bet that’s at least a decade if not two away.
Just adding to that, what required maintenance can you do on an EV?
I can take care of most of the basics like fluid and brake pad changes on my IC car. On an EV tyres are a given, but is there specialised maintenance work that I can’t do myself?
Seems like at the very least it would require a different set of tools and knowledge. I can do pretty much everything down to completely tearing down and rebuilding an engine so replacing ball joints or suspension A-frames is easy for me, but I expect that sort of thing to be outside of most people’s knowledge. Even so, there’s quite a lot that anybody can do to maintain their current vehicle without needing any special knowledge they can’t learn in five minutes. What can we do ourselves on an EV to keep the batteries and motor in good running condition, and how would we even know that there’s a fault that needs addressed? I can’t imagine a cheap EV having a full range of sensors installed, and yet on an ICE you can easily hear or feel when something isn’t right with the engine.
What can we do ourselves on an EV to keep the batteries and motor in good running condition
Read the user manual that comes with your car, it explains that in great detail. There’s practically no maintenance to be done, anyway
I can’t imagine a cheap EV having a full range of sensors installed
They don’t really need them like ICE do. OBDII gives all the details on your battery that you could possibly want, there are cheapo sensors on the like 2 other failable parts
There’s simply a lot LESS to go wrong on an EV, maintenance is very different once you get one
There’s pretty much just tires, brakes, fluids. That’s it. That’s why they’re so great. Oh and your brakes last a lot longer because most of the braking is done with regen (think electric engine braking).
To expand, the only fluid that needs replacing is the washer fluid. There is no oil needed EVs, and most don’t have transmissions, they are direct drive from the motors. The oil in the motor doesn’t need to be changed because it’s a sealed system.
So that leaves brakes, which aren’t used nearly as much due to regenerative braking like you said. And of course tires because that’s just normal wear from use. And the cabin air filter every couple years.
EVs have less than half the parts of an ICE vehicle simply because most of the engine and transmission components just aren’t there. There is simply less there that can break or wear out.
Battery longevity will depend largely on the battery tech and quality the manufacturer uses, and how good their Battery Management System is. Batteries wear mostly due to high use and how you manage charging. Fast charging all the time will wear them faster than charging overnight at home for instance. I keep my Model 3 battery between 60-80% charge and that’s way more than I need for daily driving. When going on a trip I fully charge the night before and there are a ton of chargers on all the long distance trips I’ve made. It reroutes to account for busy chargers automatically and I rarely need to think about it.
A used market is mostly a matter of time. There just hasn’t been enough EVs available for long enough to have much of a used market
Agreed, and there’s a LOT of usage in my area so I would expect there to be a decent used market. Unfortunately it doesn’t seem to be there yet. I know in time EVs will be as cheap and common as ICE vehicles are today, but personally I feel like currently they are still only available to people with a LOT of disposable cash.
The older EV models currently in the used market should be avoided. They are mostly compliance cars like the original Fiat 500e and the VW eGolf — slow charging only, small worn out batteries, and little range. Or they are first generation Leaf EVs with failing batteries that are out of warranty or cannot be replaced due to eternal back order at Nissan.
The 2017-2019 Bolts can be a good buy if they’ve already had their batteries replaced under warranty/recall. Decent range and amenities, though some find the earlier model seats uncomfortable.
This next generation of used EVs (cars shipping as new right now) will be great — longer range and faster charging.
how about evs arnt the fucking solution and build some fucking decent infrastructure
There’s no fear mongering about it! I’m anxious about the range of an electric car and not having a quick and convenient way to refuel if I near empty.
Sounds like you are fear mongering.
From TFA:
While 76% of future EV owners worry about range, nearly 59% of current EV drivers report none.
What you’re not addressing is that current EV drivers change how they drive, i.e. don’t go on the same sort of trips the same way (if the various articles on that site are to be believed). This isn’t addressing range anxiety, it’s saying plan your trips around charging your car so we work around the problem. And the problem isn’t “range” now - it’s where are the fast chargers? It’s getting better, but it’s still hard enough to pull off that there are regular youtube and news articles about the hassles and issues doing a road trip in an EV. No one does the same sort of reporting on ICE because you can find gas stations just about everywhere every 5-10 miles just about anywhere you go, and where it isn’t there is some reporting of the signs saying “last gas for 100 miles” or whatever. People know they can find a gas station, even if they’re going into a rural area.
Even when you plan ahead on a road trip there’s a pretty high chance half the chargers are down and there’s a queue of cars waiting. Made it to the next stop on my last trip with 4 miles to spare. That was a nerve-wracking drive.
Now I gotta check plug share to see recent reviews on stations and decide whether or not to take my ev.
I’ve owned an electric since 2013, never run into a down charging station. Early on, I’d run into single chargers that were occupied, but that’s it.
Not saying it’s not possible to have a broken station, just never hit it. But I, like most people, charge at home, 95% of the time.
Where are you located where there is perfect charging station maintenance for the previous 10 years?
I’m not saying it isn’t possible that you’ve never encountered a broken station, but I’ve had an EV for only a few months now and encounter malfunctioning stations on nearly every trip to a DC fast charger. It usually isn’t that every single station is broken, but if there are 4 stations, 1-2 of them will be out of service.
Honestly, track how far you normally drive and you’ll see you don’t go that far. My PHEV has a paltry 26 mile range and we use electric only 90% of the time. An EV with 200+ miles wouldn’t be an issue unless you travel for work.
People really like to overestimate how much range they actually need on a daily basis.
I drive maybe 200 miles a week. Almost all EVs could easily get that range in spring/fall. And even in the worst of winter as long as I have 120 volts to keep the battery warm I’ll make it through the week no problem.
Honestly big fast charger networks aren’t the biggest hurdle. We need basic 120v or 240v outlets ran to every apartment/town homes parking spot. With essentially a trickle from 120v you’ll be fine for 90% of your driving needs.
I don’t think the issue is the daily basis. It’s the few long trips people take yearly that would blast that 200 mile range out. People don’t want to buy a very expensive new car that they know won’t work for them several times a year. It’s the same reason people who tow something several times a year make sure their vehicle can tow that.
Because renting a vehicle for a trip or to tow is actually a PITA and expensive.
I’m still new to EVs but with the convenience of charging from home, my battery is just never low. Think of it like charging your phone: start every morning with a full charge and you just don’t have to worry about it
(Actually have mine set to stop charging at 80% and I don’t drive much at the moment so don’t plug-in every night)
Serious Question: Why can’t we just have towable generators so EVs can go from an electric car to a Plugin Hybrid for road trips?
Generators aren’t very expensive relatively speaking.
Yet I’ve never heard not seen this anywhere, and seems like a very easy solution to range anxiety.
Serious Question: Why can’t we just have towable generators so EVs can go from an electric car to a Plugin Hybrid for road trips?
Lets work through some back-of-the-napkin math here.
Lets say the average speed you’re looking to take on your road trip is 50MPH. For that discharge rate you’d need to be able to charge at 50MPH to keep up. That would put you at a charging requirement of 50kw.
Here is a picture of a 50kw towable generator:
This isn’t even any of the additional gear needed for DC rectification and power management needed to interface with NACS or CCS.
and seems like a very easy solution to range anxiety.
You can see why this idea doesn’t really work then.
1 Kw per mph sounds pretty bad. I would’ve thought electric cars are more efficient than that.
Googling a rough average returned 0.346 kwh/mile for electric cars between 2000 and 2022 (wide range, im aware). Traveling at 50MPH, you go 50 miles in 1 hour (assume you’re already going 50, and stay at that speed). So you’d use [0.346KWh/mile] *[50 miles/hour] = [17.3 KW] per hour @ 50 MPH
It’s a massive waste of energy. What does a good diesel generator have, like 20% energy efficiency? Not taking into account that you’re wasting a lot energy for towing it.
It would also have to be massive.
An average EV consumes .32 kilowatt hours of electricity per mile. If you are driving 60 miles per hour, that means you are spending 19.2 kilowatt hours of electricity every hour. So you need a generator that’s at least 19.2 kilowatt. Tack on some more because you are now towing the extra weight of a generator and because you are probably wanting to go 70mph and let’s just say you need 25 kilowatts. This is what a towable 25kw generator looks like. It costs $22k. I’m sure cheaper ones could be made, but even at $10k, is it worth it? Just buy some plane tickets or rent a gas car for a week or take a train.
https://herogenerators.com/products/25-kw-caterpillar-towable-diesel-generator
Buy? No thanks I don’t even have a good place to store it, never mind maintenance.
But I’d rent it.
Only wrinkle: backing up. I’ve owned/used trailers many times so I have no problem with backing up, but many would. Can’t think of a way around this that would be even “almost” idiot proof.
Could use a trailer that stays directly behind the car. Like instead of just a ball hitch, have several mount points on the rear of the car, then it won’t swing freely. Maybe rig it to only use one wheel when the vehicle turns (otherwise I think it would cause a bit of understeer).
Though people do learn how to use trailers. Some truck drivers even know the black magic of backing up with multiple trailers.
What if the generator was inside the front of the car - and only turned on when the battery was low? Wait, I’ve just re-invented the hybrid.
Yeah okay but almost nobody is making Plug-in Hybrids and they cost an absolute fuck ton of money.
You also don’t need the generator for 99% of rides so you can remove it to reduce costs.
Look at the new “Ram Charger” that works like you describe. It’s 60k and for whatever reason needs a 600hp engine and a full electric engine.
almost nobody is making Plug-in Hybrids and they cost an absolute fuck ton of money.
The 2024 Prius prime starts at $33k, is a PHEV https://www.kbb.com/phev/best-phev-cars/2024/
BMW, Volvo, Mercedes are also making PHEVs for 2024 model year So are Chrysler, Mazda, Hyundai, Kia, Porsche, Land Rover https://www.autoweek.com/rankings/g45455983/best-plug-in-hybrids/
There are some really expensive ones on that list, but a half-dozen under $45k
Look at the new “Ram Charger” that works like you describe
Yeah a lot of the hybrid offerings in the truck market are really not targeting the budget market at all- some of them seem to reflect automaker bets that truck buyers want more power and don’t want to compromise on towing or range. Other hybrid trucks (looking at you, Toyota) aren’t using their hybrid systems to improve fuel economy, they’re using them to juice performance.
I think it’s because someone who takes enough Road trips to use something like that would properly just get a regular plug in hybrid. That being said, this might be coming soon for ev trucks actually. The dodge ram ev is going to have a gas powered range extender, and I believe ford has patented a bed mounted version for its ev truck.
Range anxiety is basically a myth or at least a real anxiety masquerading as range anxiety. Who hasn’t been out on the boonies somewhere late at night running out of gas and wondering if you were going to make it to a gas station … the real anxiety is refuel anxiety. As soon as universal fast electric charging stations are ubiquitous this “range anxiety” will suddenly disappear. Most ICE cars only have around a 300-400 mile range tops (unless maybe the hybrids) and that is never talked about. It’s not range that is the problem.
Heck 95% of my driving would be more than ok with 50 mile range if I could charge at work and it only took a few minutes to charge. An ultra capacitor car would likely fit this bill.
