Body: I’m tired, let’s go to bed
Brain: Nah, I think I’ll stay up super late instead and be tired tomorrow for no reason.
You forgot my favorite of sleep-hating-brain internal dialogue!
"Why would you need to sleep until your alarm goes off when I can wake you early and you can be anxious about not sleeping! Or all the stuff you feel you should now start but are too tired to do even though you know I won’t let you sleep!
Wouldn’t want to sleep through that! Why do you think I kept you up so late??"
There’s also:
Brain: Okay, time to do things!
Body: Ehh… Later, let’s just lay here and have anxiety about not doing the things
This every night. And then I also get up early, or I don’t have enough time to build up dopamine to make my day a little easier (especially pre-meds and ultimately the end of the day when meds are done for the day).
I’m in my 40s now and still get to bed after midnight and wake up around 5. This shit has been going on for over a decade and I’m wondering when my body will actually sleep.
what i’ve FINALLY found to reliably help is exposure to the sky, watching the sunset and sleeping on my balcony.
There are some other actually scientifically based suggestions in this video but the above is what seems to be the crucial thing for me.
Even ADHD-oriented media is often being dishonest with people who suspect themselves to have this condition, being toxicly positive and showing ADHD as a “superpower” as if you can hyperfocus your way to success. It is neither a gift nor even an equal exchange between advantages and drawbacks like “you’ll be always late but also always creative!” It’s a crippling thing that may ruin career or end a relationship. There is nothing good with ADHD.
Absolutely. People want there to be a fair trade-off, but life just doesn’t work that way. I’ve seen similar romanticization of autism too, especially with the “savants”.
Sorry. Most of that shit has been my fault, and people like me.
In recent times, there’s been a push to reclassify certain disabilities from … disabilities, into “neurodivergence.” in an attempt to destigmatize certain disorders, and cast them in a new light as part of human evolution.
The idea that life is a min-maxing situation comes from the “just world fallacy”, the fallacious belief that all good and evils “must balance out”. Someone born with some profound disability might have no overarching heartwarming lesson for society to learn, and life might just be about abject cruelty.
I don’t know if the community appreciates or hates that change, but, I’ve seen autism go from being called something quite hateful (/r) in the 1990s, to becoming a spectrum, to people working with autistic people and just calling them “different”.
The romanticization might come from movies like Rain Man, and the few high profile savant cases (on ASD), e.g: I recall speculation that Bill Gates and Elon Musk both had Asperger’s Syndrome.
What’s your take on this?
I think it’s definitely had the positive effects that you mention. People are far less cruel, more understanding, and also WAY more willing to go seek help with these types of problems than they used to be.
The negative effect is that anytime something becomes romanticized, it’s human nature for people to adopt it as an identity, which introduces a lot of noise to the conversation, and we lose some of our objectivity toward it, as now there’s an emotional attachment to the label itself. For example:
- Back in the day (early 2010s?) of tumblr, when people first started collecting mental health labels like personal trading cards.
- Or now, with the plethora of pseudoscientific misinformation about mental health on tiktok: random people are just making up terms or symptoms and pitching them in a nearly universally relatable way like horoscopes.
- If you offer people a label that makes them feel part of a group, supported, and potentially explain why a bunch of things in their life are hard, it’s in our nature to gravitate toward that.
All that being said, I still think it’s a net-positive effect. This is just what happens anytime something clinical enters the mainstream conversation.
I hate it. Sure. Being called a retard isn’t great, but having people claim ASDs are just a different way of thinking is downplaying problems. Oh how quirky we are!
If I wasn’t retarded, I would have been able to study properly instead of relying on hyperfocus and high ascociative thinking. I would have graduated. If I wasn’t retarded, I would have been able to do things consistently and perseveer. Instead, I lose and gain weight over and over. I’m going to develop diabetes at this rate. Going to a 24/7 open gym is the only chance I got at staving off the problems caused by depression and my dopamine hunger induced eating disorder. If I wasn’t retarded, people would have appreciated me more. Instead, I am too much. Say too much. Exist too much. Even when I predict something, or suggest something that people think was good, they believe someone else in the group thought of it.
Furthermore, downplaying the issues could have people mistake just how capable people with autism/ADHD are. People shouldn’t think that starting a family with someone autistic is just “going to be a little different.” People seriously ought to reconsider marrying someone lacking theory of mind skills. And autists should seriously reconsider whether or not they are suitable parents. Baby cries? Can’t have a meltdown. Baby needs consistent care? Better not have exec. dys. inhibiting your jobsecurity and energy management. Need to be able to get on the level of the child, make the child feel heard and understood? Sucks for the kid if the parent lacks that ability too. Both my parents are autistic/AD(H)D, and were downright neglectful and one abusive. They have no real friends. They struggle with emotional regulation and communication. I’ve been working my ass off to become better than them.
I don’t care what people call having multiple mental disabilities. What’s important is helping children on the spectrum. Early detection could have spared me further brain damage and subsequent stacking of developmental problems.
I understand what you mean! What I (and probably most of us) want is the balance between “treat me like a normal person” (as in, with the same dignity and less condescension) and “don’t set expectations too high”. I believe portraying persons on the spectre as savant geniuses as in “Rain Man” or ADHD as a “superpower” skews the balance to one side and we just need some disclaimers to even it out.
As a low support / “high functioning” (which feels like a toxic phrase for “good at masking and compensating”) autist, it’s easy for me say “I’m just different” and blame my disadvantages on a society that fails to accomodate for that divergence. I often stay away from spaces where I know I won’t be comfortable, I miss out on events I fear may overwhelm me, I retreat when I don’t feel like I can handle navigating the minefield of social interaction. I’m excluding myself from things, because I know (or fear) those things won’t cater to my differences, but I’m not universally unable to participate, so it feels less like a disability to me (more on that later).
That most certainly doesn’t hold for people whose “functioning” is more severely impaired. If you respond to unexpected changes with anxiety attacks because you can’t adjust quickly, that certainly presents a disability in the literal sense and a challenge in dealing with everyday occurrences.
I feel like the shift away from calling it a disability is partially due to the stigma of treating people with disabilities as lesser, partially because it’s not always a visible physical disability and I’ve seen people argue that it’s not a real disability. Both of those are bad, but instead of engaging them, It’s sometimes easier to sidestep. Instead of arguing whether I’m disabled or not, I’ll call it a neurodivergence, because my brain being different is something that’s beyond argument.
There is also the opposite to disdain or dismissal: Pity or praise. Instead of treating me as defective or overdramatic, some people have responded with some form of “oh you poor thing, that must be hard” or “you’re so strong, making your way through life despite those challenges”.
The first one may be half-right, but it just feels like something you’d say when you don’t know what’s appropriate and are trying to play it safe with the empathy angle.
The second feels hollow, because I don’t feel stronger. I struggle far more than I could even express, because expressing thoughts in itself is a struggle. I spent forever writing this comment. To consider myself stronger than others would require me to somehow quantify my difficulties and weigh them up against theirs. I don’t think that’s productive. I think it will lead to some form of “suffering olympics”, which is a mindset I’d like to avoid.
And really, what else would I do? Sit in a corner and cry about the injustice of the universe? Might as well curse the sun for being hot, it doesn’t change anything. Better to look for shade instead of dwelling on the problem.
I don’t want people to treat me like I’m subhuman, nor like I’m superhuman. I don’t want people to invalidate my difficulties, nor make a point of dwelling on them. I want people to acknowledge that this is how I work, to understand if I’m doing something “wrong” or have difficulties, possibly help me if it’s reasonable.
I don’t need a lot of accommodation, just some patience, understanding when I express myself poorly or do things a certain way that suits me more and maybe someone to handle difficult communication on my behalf. So I wouldn’t describe myself as disabled, whether or not that would be accurate, because of the social baggage that word carries. I’d rather leave the relevant help resources for those that need it more.
That’s not to discount anyone else’s self-description. If you feel like “disability” fits your condition, I’m not going to invalidate that. You know your experience better than anyone else. In fact, I can see an argument that my self-exclusion as response to my difficulties presents some degree of disability to participate.
I’m still fighting my own preconceptions on that, and it probably is part of the reason I don’t feel like disabled is an accurate description for msyelf. I’ve grown up with a certain set of convictions and prejudice that I’ve deeply internalised. I’ve mostly managed to expunge them when it comes to others, occasionally still catching myself in some judgmental train of thought and then consciously derailing it, but I have difficulties accurately and productively reflecting on my own self-perception. In a way, it’s both the least outwardly toxic, yet most self-destructive form of hypocrisy, and I don’t know how to deal with it.
As for the romanticisation, I feel like that might be the result of efforts to fight the stigma having overshot their goal due to survivorship bias. Yes, people with ASD may have unique talents too. Yes, we’re not all entirely disadvantaged. Yes, ASD doesn’t automatically make us strictly less capable.
But most of us aren’t some insane genius. You just wouldn’t make a big deal out of the average, so the media report on the extraordinary instead. And if someone’s only contact with the topic is through media that show the savants, it’s easy to forget that what they see isn’t representative.
This is just a misunderstanding of statistics. Something being true for the average doesn’t mean it’s true for separate points.
But in average that’s a bit like calling homosexualism a disability.
I like the border between disability and just neurodivergence to be drawn where it needs to be cured with medicine or you turn into a vegetable or can’t survive. Like with schizophrenia, or maybe BPD. With autism and ADHD most of the problems are from trying to follow procedures for people who are different and imitate them, and most of the solutions are about teaching people with these conditions to drop those imitations and know themselves. I mean, medicine helps, but the problems it solves are too mostly about network effect.
I’m beginning to suspect “superfocus” is just what normal people do when they focus.
Nah, super focus is totally a thing, just not everyone does it.
My wife can’t sit in a computer chair for 8 hours straight playing a game/editing a video/writing something/reading Wikipedia really hard, but I can.
And no, I can’t control it so it’s not a superpower, it’s random enforced focus and it’s only sometimes a helpful thing. Usually the work I do when doing it gets worse much faster and it does major damage to your body to sit in 1 position for that long not peeing.
No, no, I know what hyperfocus is, it’s the reason I no longer touch creative writing with a ten foot pole after getting bombarded with “but you wrote this one in an hour and it is awesome! just write another one!” :D
I meant that I am wondering if normal people just get the same productivity but without it being flipped on or off randomly, provided they don’t get distracted by something. You know, kinda like learning that it’s not just a tv thing that people can say “okay, let’s do this” and actually sit down and do “this” and not have to beat their brain into submission first.
I can’t control it so it’s not a superpower, it’s random enforced focus
I call it catching the wave. You cant predict the wave and you have no idea if it will ever even happen. Sometimes just have to sit and wait for the motivation to complete tasks to hit, then ride it as long as I can until it tapers off again.
or end a relationship
Rather that relationship doesn’t even start, not because you insult someone (that happens, but you’re forgiven), not because you are not likeable (I thought I’m that for a long time, and lots of moments I am), but because you just don’t (despite being hit on by people amazingly beautiful and interesting and intelligent and sending electric shocks your way by simply texting you).
Though I guess someone giving you chances for over a year qualifies as a relationship which ends at some point. Just dysfunctional.
There is nothing good with ADHD.
It gives incentives to be a kinder person. You feel emotions connected to hurt\comfort more acutely than those connected to prestige, power, dominance. You dream far and swift. You don’t care about lying (EDIT: I meant that you don’t lie, not the opposite).
Any time I want to say what you said and recount all the suffering, I notice that I like it more than the alternative.
Also I still think it can be an equal exchange in a world more friendly to ADHD people.
EDIT: And it can be used against fear.
Does it help if someone forces you to do the thing or is is better to give time and space until you decide to do it? Asking for a friend.
The #1 thing that helps me is having a partner for whatever the thing is. If someone has the same goal as me, I will put 150% into getting it done.
But if the thing only benefits me? Well, then I’ll just go ahead and shoot myself right in the foot
Body doubling.
I can clean the whole kitchen while also preparing dinner and dessert if my SO is in the kitchen, even if they’re not helping. But alone? Forget it. I’ll be lucky to remember the water kettle was on.
I’m like this for most things except for cleaning the kitchen. It’s essential to know she’s counting on me, but if she’s actually there I can’t do anything. It could have something to do with the layout of our kitchen (she has to stand behind me if I’m washing dishes).
If she was working on something at the table I could probably ignore her and focus on cleaning, but if she’s trying to clean too, I can’t.
Boy am I glad I’m not the only one. This describes me exactly. Having a partner nag me to get something done is like having a literal little devil on my shoulder and is often the motivation I need. Now with me and my own projects that she has no vested interest in, those sit and languish for days, weeks, months, years….
(this is not a flex AT ALL) I am selfless to a fault. I care so little about my needs in comparison to others’ and I hate it
Depends on the thing.
Super high level, ADHD is an issue with the reward system of the brain failing to deliver reward when it’s supposed to. Your brain is supposed to try to find a new task when it’s not getting it’s reward anymore; it’s how that frontal cortex problem solving engine gets driven around by all the parts that handle motivation, wants and desires.
Sometimes no reward is being given, so you keep slipping off to a different task, and sometimes too much reward is being given and so you stay on a task way too long.
And, to be clear: these are not huge rewards we’re talking about like a wave of pleasure or noticable feeling, just the baseline steering signals.
Sometimes the task you need to do provides no “normal” reward but neither does what you’re doing right now, so your problem solver sees no reason to switch. Sometimes a nudge can help because fulfilling a request or suggestion can come with some reward, or at least you’re just swapping out neutral tasks with some minor effort.
Sometimes the task is unpleasant to some minor degree, so not only is the reward not there, it’s also a punishment. Or the thing you’re currently doing is providing some degree of reward.
In either case, switching means actively going against everything your problem solver uses to decide what to do. Needless to say, that’s really hard, and being nudged often feels more like being nagged, or like they’re upset with you, because your problem solver (also known as your conscious self) knows this is all going on, but knowing how the engine is working doesn’t make it work differently.
So you’ve been sitting there trying to push a granite block up a hill for an hour, and then someone comes up and starts pushing on your back. They haven’t removed the part that made it hard, but they added something uncomfortable to your current situation.
Before I got on medication following my diagnosis, me and my partner handled it by just being really cognizant of what our mental states are, and communicating clearly. “You asked me to remind you”, “I need to do it, but I’m stuck”, and effectively asking for permission before annoying someone to the point where the current blocker is less desirable than doing the thing. Requires a lot of trust and good communication though.
It’s difficult to describe subjective feelings, but what can sometimes look like “sitting on the couch watching short YouTube videos about sheep dogs instead of brushing your teeth and going to bed” is actually: sitting on the couch bored out of your mind and desperately wanting to go to bed, but the sheepdogs are providing short bursts of novelty and cute. Removing your lap blanket provides no joy and makes you cold. Standing up provides no joy and makes you less comfortable. Walking to the bathroom provides no joy and now you’re in the dark bathroom. Brushing your teeth provides no joy, tastes bad, and is intensely boring. Walking to the bedroom provides no joy. Getting into bed and snuggling up provides joy.
Summed up: sheep dogs provide continuous minor joy, and only costs the physical misery of staying awake, the confused guilt of paralysis, and the promise of future misery. Going to bed is a promise of some joy, but it comes with a bunch of steps that are at best neutral and often entail anti-joy. It just doesn’t add up. Other people get a tiny hit of joy from each substep, which is why they can say “I’m done looking at sheepdogs, I’m going to bed” and then just magically do it.
“Before you go to bed, you need to slowly press your bare foot into this fresh dog poop, toes spread of course” isn’t often made better by someone saying “it’s not that bad, come on, you can do it, I believe in you, then you can get some rest for once”.
That youtube short part really hurts, I know thats whats going on, but getting the move on is so impossible. I also can’t get my brain to understand that sleeping is not wasting time, even while I’m wasting time watching nothings on youtube.
Sometimes I picture my prefrontal cortex as a well meaning bureaucrat who’s just like "oh, trust me, I know the rules are terrible and there’s an active problem. Nothing I can do about it though, I just work here. Second that order comes in though, I’m on it boss, you better believe. You’re gonna want to talk to my manager. Yeah, he doesn’t take calls. It sucks, could maybe get something fixed around here. "
Does all of this ring true for anybody else without diagnosed ADHD? Because this is exactly how I feel constantly but I also hate to self-diagnose based on internet discussion.
I feel like ADHD is one of those things where everybody relates to it a bit, so it’s hard to know if I should look into getting a diagnosis.
Don’t self diagnose based on a single internet discussion but self diagnosis is crucial to getting yourself some relief. I didn’t get a diagnosis until I was about 40, and even at this point the change was dramatic. I don’t take stimulants but I take a few medications and it made life so much easier, I doubled my salary in 3 years, bought a house, just had a fantastic few years. But I also have a ton of trauma, I hurt a lot of people and myself from being so chaotic and depressed and incapable of processing thoughts or feelings, or being able to handle basic finances. I also lost like 15 years of good life where I could have been successful and happy instead of depressed and stuck in a shitty job with no clear way out.
If you’re reading these discussions and realizing that it seems a little too familiar, take this seriously. If you decide you have it, don’t take anyone’s word that you don’t. Its hard to get treated IMO, so if you see a therapist and they don’t want to treat you for ADHD, then bye bye, find another one who will take it seriously. I went to therapists on and off for years trying to figure out why I was depressed, and they basically told me I was okay, the normal amount of unhappy with regular life stuff. I finally got on a mild antidepressant and it helped immensely. I fought and found out the antidepressant had an off label use for treating mild ADHD, and when my daughter got diagnosed I looked more into it. When I went to therapists to get treated for ADHD, they told me I was just depressed. so you gotta fight for yourself, but this world is a fuck, and it can be extremely worth while once you get what you might need.
Yeah, a lot of brain things are like that. The way I look at it is, everyone sees a little of it, but some people see a lot of it. If you see a lot, it’s not self diagnosis to say “I have a lot of symptoms in common with people who have this, so I asked a professional”.
You also don’t need a diagnosis to practice some of the coping strategies that people have that are non-medication. If they turn out to be helpful, that’s maybe a another reason to ask a professional.
Self diagnosis is a bad idea, but it’s also a bad idea to ignore marked similarities you see between yourself and others. And stuff like “always put your keys and wallet in a specific basket” is only the cost of the basket.
Same. I’m even a bit afraid of talking to a doctor about it because I feel like such a farse. I totally feel like I have ADHD but I’m also highly functioning. But when I think about how I’m functioning, it’s basically a series of ways I trick my brain dominoes into falling into place. At work I carefully manage all my notifications - I must avoid being distracted by them, but must put systems into place to remind me of every task.
Oh yeah. Wonderful memories of psyching myself up to do Thing and then suddenly getting nagged to do Thing and dropping in absolute negatives on the good old motivation.
That’s a wonderful example at the end there, gotta remember it when I talk to people who don’t get why I was standing in doors dressed and couldn’t go outside.
For me personally, and a few others I know, it’s definitely the latter. However, everyone is different, so it’d be interesting to see other people’s replies.
Agreed. Definitely the latter.
I think this is way more of a shitty personality trait of mine than anything, but for some reason, if I’ve already gotten in the headspace to do something, and I’m preparing for it or thinking about it at that moment, etc. and someone tells me to do, I either get angry, almost like a, “I’m not an idiot you don’t have to tell me,” kind of way, or it totally deflates me and I get knocked out of that headspace for some reason.
I don’t get what that is, but after having to wrestle with my own brain just to get simple tasks completed, having that additional stress just messes me up.
I think the reaction depends on how aware one is of how one’s flow state works. Neurotypical people seem to be able to get back into it much easier than us ADHD types, but I think that’s often because our flow states tend to be deeper, so it’s much more annoying to be knocked out of it for seemingly trivial reasons by people who don’t know how hard it is to get back into that state after an interruption.
In my opinion, this is (mostly) a “training issue”. If I know this is how my brain works, it’s my job to train those around me on how to help me be as efficient as possible, even if it’s something as simple as “if my headphones are on, do not interrupt me unless something is ON FIRE, OR if I have been working for more than 3 hours without a break.”
If either of those things are true, it’s also my job to not be annoyed by the interruption, which is of course often harder than the interruption itself.
Personally it all comes down to adrenaline. If a task stresses me out enough to hit me with some adrenaline I’ll complete it immediately.
If not then I’m either doing nothing while thinking about the task or forgetting the task existed at all.
Kinda depends for me, super situational. The right kind of pressure and yeah I’ll do it, something like an imminent non-negotiable deadline works for me. I’m the guy who files my taxes in the last possible week, I’ll slam out a report a night or two before it’s due.
But someone forcing me to do it? They just get flagged as an asshole who doesn’t have any authority here, even if I’ve asked them to do this, I know they’re trying to help, whatever. It’s the same situation when I try to set deadlines, or rewards, for myself. I know the guy who made those rules, he’s full of shit.
You can try ans give motivation, offer emotional support, sometimes even offer to do the thing together (sometimes just arranging a thing is a good way to not let it slide), but forcing will have the opposite effect and will only add to the internal pressure that is already there (but you won’t probably see) and that is not enough. Of course it depends on the person, you can also ask your friend, as long as you accept the answer as a fact with no judgement (it’s not easy but probably it will be appreciated)
@fushuan @The_Picard_Maneuver It’s better if you’re the one who forces you to do the thing.
This meme makes a good point I’ll look into it tomorrow. I’m too busy ignoring the mountain of stuff I need to get done today to have the time
I feel this applies to more than just adhd, for example things like burn-out and depression.
ADHD is just a bunch of symptoms in a trench coat.
Yeah everyone pees, but if you do it 60 times a day, you should probably ask why, no?
ADHD is just a bunch of symptoms in a trench coat
You mean like Supernatural’s Castiel, especially in the early seasons?
ADHD often comes with some degree of low-grade anxiety/depression tbh
I remember talking to my therapist about how I’m not worried about forgetting something, I’m always worried about what I haven’t realized I have forgotten and is already causing a problem. I just live in a constant state of “something is on fire I just haven’t smelled the smoke yet.” it’s not quite PTSD, but it is certainly something analogous and it’s always this low level hum of stress. At least that’s what I took from my conversation with her.
Fucking hell. I have days or weeks where this happens for me but eventually passes. Usually it’s time related for me. Like I’ve missed an appointment. But there isn’t one?? 🤷♂️
I haven’t been to the eye doctor in over 5 years so that’s a fun one to randomly remember.
If you make a venn diagram of the symptoms of ADHD, PTSD, burnout, anxiety, bipolar, and autism you get pretty close to a circle
Yah this feels so similar to autism. Interesting how there’s so much overlap. Has anyone tried to make a venn diagram like that or would it be too complex? /gen
Nothing here is a clinical diagnosis. They are just a lot of the things us with ADHD deal with on a daily basis that effects our lives enough that it severely diminishes our quality of life without physician help. See a doctor if these types of things are effecting your life in any significant way.
I have to deal with depression at the moment. I am unhappy with some circumstances in my life. Since unemployment could happen soon, it would be beneficial, if I would apply for some jobs. I even asked some friends if they knew about vacancies. But for some reason I just can’t do it. It is enormously frustrating. But reading about symptoms here and realising it actually is a symptom helps me with self compassion.
