I’m an ex incel myself, but I’ve been seeing a few users here exhibiting the tell tale signs. “I’m not attractive enough”, “I don’t socialize correctly”, “I’ll never find a woman” - all extremely unhealthy attitudes.
Personally I burned through many friendships and ruined a lot of chances with women because I was in the incel community. The community warped my view of women so much that I made it even harder to meet women, I became my own worst enemy. I lost friends because all I could think of was how horrible it was that they had girlfriends.
I have a friend who helped me out of it. She was the one who started calling out my bad behavior for what it was, and I started on the long uphill path out of it. I’m now married and stable for well over a decade, but I still think back to those days, and it depresses me seeing other people causing this themselves and not being aware of it.
So, Lemmy, for those who have clawed out of it, what’s your story?
Taking martial arts classes (specifically for me, Brazilian jiu jitsu). Coincidentally i met my current girlfriend there, but you shouldn’t expect to meet women there. Rather, it’s a way to stop thinking about women for two hours. I realized that back then my mind was constantly thinking non-stop if i’m attractive to women, what women like, how i can get one, etc. It’s those thought loops that make interaction so painful.
Literally anything that can get your mind off of women. Hot take; I wouldn’t advise going to a gym though, because still then you’re thinking about how to become more attractive by becoming fit. The goal is to work out to take your mind off things. Martial arts is perfect for this: you physically work out, and your mind is focused on your opponent.
Yo, just want to say: good on you and good advice. I think you nail the problem with the constant thoughts thing, and that also explains why so many people will talk about how they met someone after they “stopped looking”.
I am not a current or ex incel—I came from the front page out of curiosity—but I feel the need to weigh in on this.
I have a black belt in a mixed martial art, I’ve been active in it for many years as a student and as a teacher, and I strongly feel that martial arts can offer a positive improvement to just about every person.
I joined martial arts because I was severely depressed going through a divorce and custody battle; I was going from work to the bar and then home. My life felt meaningless and I very literally woke up one day and realized that if I didn’t change something I was going to kill myself. I joined a local dojo that day.
Martial arts is special. It certainly gives you a place to vent out some frustrations in a safe, productive way… but if you find yourself a good dojo it can be so much more.
Martial arts boosted my confidence massively; it made me feel better about myself and who I am by giving me regular positive interactions with many other people. Belts are earned from hard work, and the experience of being handed that next rank provides a measurable improvement to guide you.
Eventually you start to be the upper belt and get to guide newer people through the same benefits you’ve seen, which feels great. If you go as far as me you may get to stand in front of the class as an expert and feel the healthy respect of a group of people, earned through dedication and the relationships you have formed with them.
Martial arts made me a better person, and better man, a better father, and helped me live a more well rounded and happy life.
Normally I end this little rant there, but if you are an incel and you are looking to get out I will add one more benefit: women go to class too, and if you want positive role model women to help break you out of a cycle of negativity I can think of no better example than an upper-belt woman who you can interact with in a structured environment. Most people in a dojo are pretty chill and happy to help, they also tend to have high confidence in the upper ranks and aren’t looking to prove anything anymore. It’s a pretty fantastic way to form new friendships that will challenge everything the incel community has convinced you is true.
Not a martial artist here, but I would think the fact that everyone is in a basic uniform in many martial arts also makes it less intimidating for someone with body image issues who feels them especially strongly in front of women. No one is dressed attractively or provocatively in the sort of outfits people wear when doing martial arts. They’re not designed to look sexy. They’re a pretty good gender equalizer in terms of appearance.
I’ve never been an incel but I’ve always sympathised because I feel like I easily could have become one. Seeing a therapist and learning the basics of Cognitive Bias Therapy is what I attribute to helping me out of a lot of those ‘thought loops’.
It’s nice hearing stories about people who’ve escaped it.
You do not need to pre train to join a martial arts gym as a rookie/white belt
I was never full-on incel, but I was definitely headed down that path. I was a late-20’s fat guy with severe acne all over my upper body, and I’d obviously never had a girlfriend. I looked ahead in life and just saw it going further and further downhill. I tried dieting, working out, etc, but none of my attempts at making a change ever lasted.
One day I saw a facebook post that one of my old highschool classmates had gotten married. The guy looked a lot like me, and at first I was mad - I had that classic incel thought of “why is he successful and not me?” But after sitting in that dark place for awhile, I realized that the answer to that question is that I can be successful! I realized that I’d never tried to put myself out there because I always viewed myself as not being worthy - I needed to be fitter, more attractive, better at talking to people, etc - but did I really? I wanted to find out, so I made an online dating account, cleaned myself up, got a friend to take some nice pictures of me doing things I enjoyed, and put myself out there.
I made a goal for myself to never start a conversation with “Hey” or something similar - I went through every profile I found and picked something specific to talk about. It took a while, and I missed a lot of opportunities by being awkward, but eventually I got good enough at holding a conversation to secure a few dates, and in only a few months of that, I found the woman who is now my wife!
I’m still fat, but having someone to look good for was at least enough for me to shower more regularly, which cleared up a lot of my acne. I’m still pretty awkward, but so is my wife, and we both find it endearing. Life’s not perfect - there are still issues - but I’m no longer looking ahead at my life and seeing only downhill trajectory; I have a sense of optimism I didn’t have before, and it mostly came from me accepting myself. I’m not sure if other incels are the same as I was - not realizing that the one they actually hate is themselves - but I hope that if they are, they eventually come to the same realization that I did: that they are worthy.
In my very limited experience, the one characteristic that seems pretty universal to incels is the inability to have casual, no pressure small talk with anyone, especially with those of the opposite gender (or whatever gender you like).
Small talk is a skill like anything else. It must be practiced and honed. The easiest way to do this is just by being interested in what the person is saying. You don’t have to be funny or quippy. Just be curious about their life and you’ll find that most of small talk is just being able to go back and forth about a topic.
It seems like incels, or at least Tate-holes, treat every conversation as a challenge with the reward being sex.
Just be friends with people. Who fucking cares if you end up in a romantic relationship, allow yourself to form close intimate friendships that aren’t physical.
Awesome! I scored 6 conversation points, I can redeem my punch card for sex now!
Small talk is a skill like anything else. It must be practiced and honed. The easiest way to do this is just by being interested in what the person is saying. You don’t have to be funny or quippy. Just be curious about their life and you’ll find that most of small talk is just being able to go back and forth about a topic.
Key here is that anyone can do small talk. You have to have ZERO knowledge about the subject matter. You can just ask questions. Anyone interested in a topic will usually be happy to answer them. This works on anything from sports to cooking to blacksmithing topics. The wonderful thing you find out is: PEOPLE ARE INTERESTING!
Admit your ignorance on the subject and have them walk through explanations. Engage in the conversation by connecting it to any tangential knowledge you have on the subject.
“Ocean kayaking? I’ve never done that. That sounds exhilarating. The closest thing I’ve ever done to that was a canoe on a river when I was 12. I’m sure its different but how different is it?”
“How did you get into that hobby?”
“Where in the world have you done it?”
“Any close calls?”
“How important is the right gear/boat?”
“Where would you like to do that in the future?”
See? Zero knowledge about ocean kayaking, but infinite conversation that the other person is engaged with you in. Congratulations you’re small talking!
The tips here for small conversation here are spot on. Most people want to talk about themselves and stuff they enjoy, I know I do (but I’m also aware not everything I want to say is what people want to listen to, I love history but it’s rare for me to find “openings” to share some of it and people often try to change topics soon after). Give them a bit of room and, if it’s something you really want to know more about, ask further.
Key here is that anyone can do small talk. You have to have ZERO knowledge about the subject matter. You can just ask questions. Anyone interested in a topic will usually be happy to answer them
Fucking hell. I needed that. I’ve somehow never put that all together by this point
It is also okay not to be good a “small talk”. I quite frankly hate it and for the most part i tend to overwhelm people in conversations. Now i am happily married and we still sometimes end up just talking all night, because we engage in conversations we both find meaningful.
Weirdly enough and quite annoyingly now that i am married and built some confidence, a lot of women are hitting on me, and seemingly unfazed by me stating the fact that i am married. Had to cut out a few people from my life because of that.
The best advice I’ve heard along those lines is: “It’s more important to be interested than interesting”
Ironically, I reckon the more interested you are in people and things, the more interesting you become, because you learn and gain a more diverse understanding of the world, and then you are able to interact with more depth with more people.
I made a goal for myself to never start a conversation with “Hey” or something similar - I went through every profile I found and picked something specific to talk about.
This is a good strategy. It’s surprising how many people (of all genders) match on dating apps and think “hey” is a strong opener.
Also surprising is how many people think a longer message they send to every match (eg: “what do you think defines art?”) is a good move.
Asking people about their profile stuff is the way to go. People like talking about themselves. People are (hopefully) putting things on their profile their way to talk about.
I changed my gender.
I don’t know if this counts since I was never the women hating type, but for a long time I suffered because I couldn’t figure out a way to have a girlfriend.
How I dealt with it? Understanding myself, mechanisms of social pressure, and the wrong motives I had for wanting to have a girlfriend.
It was always about proving something to others, rather than actually finding a life partner. Everyone around me constantly pestered me to find a gf, friends, family … All the media celebrates certain kinds of romantic relationships. I thought I’m worthless if I don’t do it as well.
Changing that mindset transformed me - I don’t have to put myself in situations I’m uncomfortable with, and I don’t have to pursue types of relationships defined by others.
I got asked out by a girl in high school I barely knew after feeling unlovable for most of my teens. I became fast friends with her female friends and it kinda helped me realize that women are just people.
Later I broke up with her but stayed friends with everyone. Eventually I started dating one of her other friends, and we’re still together 6 years later. Taught me that being friends with someone should probably come before a relationship, and the best way to get girl friends is to just hang around them and do normal friend stuff.
Later I found out that the only reason I got asked out in the first place was because of a coin flip. If I lost that 50/50 I might still be an incel weirdo. Weird to think about.
Having good female friends can absolutely make a huge difference. I thought women were these nebulous things that I didn’t know how to talk to. Turns out they’re the exact same. There are some that like sports, there are others that like nerdy things. You can’t just put people into boxes and say “you are a woman so you are like X”. They’re just like men, with different traits, and you can be best friends with women even if there is no intention to ever sleep with them.
Hell some of my best friends were women, and after they uturned me about being an incel they started going to bat to help me out. “Hey we invited ____ along, we talked you up to them!”
The coin flip, chance concept is something I’ve dealt with too. I was fast going down the incel path in my mid 20s. One of my managers at work was given two tickets to a speed-dating event, his mother told him he “needs to find a girlfriend” so she can “be a grandmother”. He didn’t want to go. We were having fun talking to him about how awful a speed dating event would turn out to be.
He said he would go if one of his friends came with him to the event (afterall, he had two tickets). He called so many of his friends, most were already in a relationship, or were busy that day, or just rejected the invitation. Then he started asking workmates at work, similar responses. Eventually he approached me, he knew I was single, knew I didn’t have social life, knew I never spoke to women, he said it would be a good opportunity for me to put myself out there. My first inclination was to say “no way”, “absolutely not”. I’m not attractive and a bit autistic, I don’t make a good first impression to anyone. The thought of awkwardly making small talk for 5 minutes at a time with 12 different women who were judging me based on first impressions, was the absolute opposite of my idea of a good time.
Then I thought about it as a chance to help my colleague, he wasn’t going to go unless I went with him, I wanted him to go, he wanted me to go, plus it was at a new bar that I’d heard good things about. At the very least I’d get to have some drinks with my work friend.
The event was about as awkward and anxiety-inducing as I expected for the most part. Most women were much older than me, and clearly had zero interest in chatting to me. So I took the pressure off myself, I wasn’t there to find a girlfriend, I didn’t buy the ticket, I was there to support my friend. There were two women around my own age, who were not bad looking and I actually managed to hold a conversation with (the beers helped). At the end of the event you could write down the name of anyone you felt a connection with and the organisers would find mutual matches.
Next day I find out I matched with one of the women I’d indicated. I got her contact details, and started talking to her via emails and SMS for a few months, getting to know each other better. Again I didn’t put any pressure on myself, I didn’t know this person, I didn’t ask her to match with me, it was a “easy come, easy go” situation with zero stakes. After two months we eventually went on a real date, and turns out we were a great match. Two years later we were engaged. Today is our 10th wedding anniversary, and we have two kids.
After we started dating I found out that she only went to the speed dating event as a support person to her friend. She didn’t go in looking for a relationship either.
That got me thinking about the odds of this happening. If my colleague didn’t get given tickets from his mother, if any of his other friends weren’t busy and went with him instead, if I didn’t agree to go along with him, if she didn’t go along with her friend for support, if I didn’t write down her name at the end, if she didn’t write down my name. The mind boggles. She told me it was a 50/50 whether she wrote down my name, just like you mentioned.
When people say dating is a “numbers game”, that doesn’t need to be interpreted in a predatory or creepy way. I think this is what it is about, the chances of finding a connection with someone really is a chance, but the one thing you can do is find a way to make that chance non-zero.
- Women are just people
- It’s alright to be just friends with women
- Women are friends with other women
These are the cheat codes for having all the right attitudes and environment to find a person who wants to be more than friends. I think a lot of the other ways to get out of it would emerge from applying these.
Note that the more people realize the first, the less valid the last becomes. The fact that many of our societies are sexist create this artificial division where women hang out mostly with women and men with men. As someone who’s grown up in a post-communist Eastern European country, I gotta say, living in a society where women have men friends and men have women friends from an early age was absolutely spectacular. And it just breeds opportunities for developing social skills and romantic relationships. Often friends stay friends after the romance is over.
Taught me that being friends with someone should probably come before a relationship
This has been my experience too. My wife is my wife but she is also my best friend.
She wouldn’t have done it on the outcome of a coinflip if she wasn’t at least partly interested.
She had a crush on two guys, I was one of them lol. The coin flip was to determine who to ask out. You’re right though!
