20 points
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Deleted by creator
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-1 points

Ok, white knight.

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8 points

Clearly you’ve not yet read my book ‘Angry Men Are A Myth: why everyone should stop telling me to get therapy’

Every copy comes with a discount code for 5% off a Thinking Mans Fedora!

Remeber kids, the best devil’s advocates shop exclusively from NotAllMen LLC.

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15 points

I’m a dude and I would love a world where women feel safe to be open with their boundaries. This comic nails it in that the problem isn’t women, it’s other men.

Patriarchal society doesn’t just hurt women, it hurts men too.

Any guys reading this- we don’t have to be the problem, in fact we are part of the solution. We are not useless, we are not supposed to just shut up and listen, we are supposed to be role models for the next generation. We have work to do, and when everyone benefits, we will benefit too. This isn’t a zero sum game.

I’m an educator, and I try to teach the girls that men don’t need to be feared, and teach the boys not to be men to be afraid of. It’s my job to show the boys that there is an alternative masculinity to what Andrew Tate prescribes.

If anyone wants a good YouTube male role model, I suggest John Green. I want more men who can recite Emily Dickinson and be open with their emotions in healthy ways.

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4 points
*

There’s a flip side to this. And full disclosure, I’m a guy trying to be part of the solution.

The flip is that guys are assumed to be dangerous. That’s the default. And yeah, some guys are dangerous, but imagine if every time you met someone new they flinched back when you tried to shake their hand. Every. Single. Time. Would you continue to try to shake hands? Or would you shy away from meeting new people?

Now, obviously that example is an extreme. Virtually no one has that happen, but we see similar communicated all the time. Women crossing the street because they don’t want to walk in front of a guy. People suspicious of a man at a park just watching his kid. Etc.

I’m not saying women don’t have a right to feel nervous, or even that they are wrong to feel the way they do. I’m just pointing out that being treated like I could explode at any moment wears on my soul. And being told “this isn’t about you” really doesn’t change much about how it makes me feel.

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0 points

This sure sounds like an internalised version of “you’re one of the good ones”. It’s cool man, don’t let bigots gaslight you into feeling bad about your gender.

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-1 points

I’m not sure you’re understanding the situation. Imagine if 1 out of 10 dogs you approached were aggressive, would you feel happy around dogs? Or would you protect yourself?

You’re fully aware that women are taking actions are protecting themselves, so why are you taking this personally? Why not just be understanding?

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4 points

That’s a very real experience, and I have experienced that too. As a male teacher, I have often been seen with suspicion. As just a tall guy who has some self awareness, I can sense that I can be seen as a potential threat. It’s exhausting.

But remember, it’s not women’s fault. It’s the fault of asshole guys that bought into a shit idea of what masculinity is and taught women to be on guard.

The fact is the boys are not alright. They are being outperformed in school, and in all demographics except the elite, there is a drop in real wealth among men when women are climbing. This is especially true for men of color. If there is a failure of progressive change in the 2000s, it’s not giving the boys a path forward beyond “no means no”.

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10 points
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lol @ the schmucks feeling threatened by men giving their opinions or feel the need to preemptively post personal attacks.

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1 point
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Deleted by creator
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0 points
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why women feel unsafe

How are you unsafe on the internet? Are you willingly giving out personal details to anyone messaging you? Is someone sending you DMs where they convince you to hit yourself? Or are you just worried about viruses?

you literally came at me with a attack calling me a schmuck

Ah yes, the constant fear of being called a schmuck. Frequently confused with the constant fear of actually being a schmuck, the main difference being that the former is image-related, while the latter usually implies some form of self-awareness. Also sometimes confused with the fear of an actual attack instead of just name-calling, by people who are so sure they’re right that they can’t spend the two seconds to search for statistics.

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15 points

Nothing worse than (gender, sex) giving their opinions on something.

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6 points

male men

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1 point

Karl Malones

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The people who come every day but Sunday to bring me bills?

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1 point
*

mlen (tbh I didn’t wasn’t sure which one to use here and didn’t really want to start that discussion lol)

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-2 points
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Thinking you don’t look stupid mocking people for not appreciating sex-based stereotyping and assuming is the real “lol”.

The extra dumb part is that the kind of guys in the first panel, are invariably not the same guys in the third panel, but the comic is desperate to ‘expose’ hypocrisy by pretending they are. That’s another reason for the male frustration in here–it’s all coming from ‘first panel’ guys, who all know they’re not ‘third panel’ guys.

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10 points

I hate this rhetoric. It implies that this a refular occurence. It is just a man hating comment. If this is happening to you frequently, maybe you are the problem. I am tired of being assumed an asshole just because I am a man. It is sexist. Plain and simple.

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6 points

For many women, it is a regular occurance. Perhaps if you are frequently being assumed an asshole, maybe you are the problem?

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1 point

Perhaps if you are frequently being assumed an asshole, maybe you are the problem?

This is a phenomenally stupid sentence, lmao. Maybe he’s the problem if people frequently ASSUME something about him? If they ASSUME?

Wow.

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-2 points

Yes honey, that’s the point, great reading comprehension

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3 points

He’s obviously the problem. Classic victim blaming behavior. Incel in the making there.

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11 points
*

Or, perhaps both genders have assholes among them and we, as a society, have lost our ability to communicate with the opposite (or same) sex as caring, feeling human beings.

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8 points

I agree, I was just flipping back the dumb logic of “it isnt widespread, and if it is, it is your fault”

We should communicate more, and the comic is a pretty good communication of why women are often (or rather, seem often) dodgy/cagey with men who are interested in them.

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0 points

That’s the thing though, I am not the problem, it’s some other asshole that can’t take rejection. He is the problem. Two different people.

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1 point

The idiotic implication that the behavior of other human beings is your responsibility because they’re the same sex as you is frustratingly common.

The irony is that the people who say stuff like that magically realize how invalid the logic is when it comes to any other demographic–you’d never catch them telling black people that black crime is exclusively their responsibility, for example.

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7 points

It is a regular occurrence. Ask your female friends about it.

You’re tired? They’re exhausted. Toxic behavior from aggressive men caused this collective fatigue.

Unless you behave like the man in the comic, this isn’t about you.

Maybe instead of pretending this super common thing doesn’t happen, you could encourage other men like I am doing right now.

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-2 points

This is the exact same logic used by white supremacists to rationalize criticizing black people as a group.

Unless you behave like the man in the comic, this isn’t about you.

‘If you’re a black guy who ISN’T like the stupid violent gangster stereotype I just depicted, this isn’t about you. How dare you be offended at my depiction!’

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-1 points

Totally the same thing /s

Come on dude seriously? You think criticizing commonplace sexism and harassment in our culture is the same as white supremacists? You need to listen to some women more often.

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5 points

I hear you. However I think the overall angst is geared towards the perspective that this is most likely outcome from men. I know there are jerks. But we are not all jerks. And he seems to have been told many times it’s assumed he will be a jerk.

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6 points

Not sure I buy that this comic isn’t a valid perspective. You’ve read into it that the author is claiming this is a universal experience but from the context it could equally be theirs.

Men and women alike are both awkward and bad at acknowledging rejection so I’m certain there is another comic out there with an alternative point of view on a situation like this.

Kind of an aside, but I learnt through harsh experiences as a youth that people basically categorise everyone else into a potential viable partner or not within about 5 mins of meeting them. Once that window has shut it is hard to change someone’s opinion of you. I suspect situations like this comic arise because the person asking for the date is asking without looking for cues from the other person that they see them as a potential romantic interest.

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4 points

It’s important to remember it this way:

If you’re in a club with 99 amazing men, and one totally perverted creep who flips to aggression on a dime, guys like that won’t stop after harassing the first woman they meet in the club. By the end of the night, 4 out of 5 women who attended that club have had an experience of a guy hitting on them and getting aggressive when they reject him, and there’s a good chance it’s all the same guy. It doesn’t matter that proportionally there are waaaay more good men at the club, the reality is that almost every woman in that club had a scary experience that night because of a man.

Now that happens every night you go out, if it’s not you getting harassed, it’s your bestie and you need to stick together. Sure, you and your girls are meeting 2 or 3 great guys who you have lovely interactions without. But in the uber home you’re not talking about how nice that bloke and his mates you met on the dance floor was, you’re checking in to make sure your friend is okay after that one guy tried to slip his hand up her skirt while she was ordering at the bar, only to get threatened with rape when she said “please stop that”.

So, yes, it is a regular occurrence, not because the men who do this are regular in the population (though in some areas due to the local subcultures, they are) it’s a regular occurrence because the few men who do this are serial harassers, and for every woman you politely and respectfully flirt with, the assholes are out there harassing 10 or 20 women.

Now I do understand how frustrating it is when we say “Urgh, men” and not “Urgh, specific men who like this”, but when that one creep is a new creep every time you go out, and you’re creeped on every time you go out by the one guy there who is a creep, the other 99 men fade into the background because they aren’t a threat, you don’t need to be vigilant around them, so you aren’t thinking about them. He’s one guy out of 100, but his level of threat and danger dominates the women’s lasting perception of the safety of the space, and why is it unsafe? Because of a man, which man? It could be any man, you won’t know until you interact with them, so until you know, the danger isn’t a man, it’s men. I know that while there are a thousand species of snake only about 30 have a truly fatal bite, but I’m still going to say “I’m afraid of snakes”, even while I’m giving a chill pet carpet python a happy little cuddle.

And it sucks, I’m sorry you get lumped in with assholes due to the way women use language to describe their fears and concerns over some men.

What you’re experiencing is how these bad men effect all people, not just the women they harass. And it’s a great reason to join the social movements working to reduce behaviours of concern among these groups of aggressive men.

But while it’s frustrating that this social issue causes you to feel prejudged as dangerous, at least this social issue isn’t a risk to your physical safety the same way it is for women.

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1 point

Schrödinger’s creep.

You put this in better words than I would have. Great post!

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-6 points

And don’t forget he grabs a gun and shoots a bunch of people in the mall.

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-1 points

Lmao!

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122 points

I get where they’re coming from, but it’s still not great being a guy and only getting vague signals that you’re trying to piece together. Ghosting is also another issue that’s honestly just disrespectful.

While it may ultimately be those man children who ruin it for everyone, some upfront honesty is generally very appreciated.

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52 points

While it might feel rough for you, it’s worth remembering that a lot of women have faced very real threats of violence for their upfront honesty.

If you’re only getting vague signals then maybe that’s the sign that she’s not fully into you.

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10 points

Yeah, for men the likely worst case scenario is embarrassment, women can get straight-up beaten or murdered

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0 points

If by “embarrassment” you mean “getting arrested or your entire career and life ruined by sexual harassment accusations because you accidentally made someone uncomfortable”. Don’t act as if men are giving up dating in record numbers over “embarrassment”. It’s disingenuous. They’re giving up because guys like the one in the comic cause women to view them all as “creeps”.

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67 points
*

I feel like this is very dismissive and also ignores that lots of relationships do inevitably start with vague signals.

“Yeah, well, women have it worse so your feelings are irrelevant and it’s okay if they ghost you.”

As I said in my original comment, I get it. But it doesn’t take away from the fact that it’s a difficult situation for men.

Being dismissive of men’s feelings and not letting them talk about how dating is difficult for them isn’t helping anyone.

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-17 points

I think one should be rather dismissive of “it would be easier for me if others engaged in behaviours that have resulted in their being abused”.

Your fucking convenience doesn’t come before their sense of safety.

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34 points

I didn’t intend to be dismissive and if my response sounded that way then I apologise.

I agree it’s difficult to be on the receiving end of vague signals, but my perspective is if there’s any annoyance or frustration it should be directed at the violent/angry men who have caused women to feel unsafe.

Helping women feel safer by tackling the violence and misogyny directed at them by men will benefit everyone.

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14 points

I think there’s three main reasons for vague signals.

  1. They legitimately don’t know how they feel. Maybe they kind of like you but aren’t sure. Recommended: do not pursue. Find someone who is enthusiastic about you. Do you really want to spend your time with someone who can’t make decisions and doesn’t know how they feel? It’s exhausting.

  2. They are afraid or uncomfortable, and are trying to avoid upsetting you. Like the comic. Enough men will do just that or worse if they get rejected that being polite can seem safer, even if it makes me man feel like he’s getting mixed signals. You know you’re not like that, but they don’t. Recommended: same as above.

2b. You are talking to someone who can’t leave like a retail worker. Stop bothering the person who can’t tell you to fuck off.

  1. They aren’t thinking about you at all. Like one time they’re happy to go bowling with you but the next time they blow you off on biking. What gives?? Mixed signals?? Nah dude she just likes bowling.
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22 points

It’s also dismissive of the fact that a lot of women give vague signs as their signs of interest. It’s really just a damned if you do or don’t situation. Either you interpret the vague signals as disinterest and move on, or you read them as a potential go ahead and you’re a dick.

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5 points

Yet I read other thread were women bitched and men acknowledge that we just miss signs when they interested. Its a no win situation. Man glad met my wife on a dating app and we communicated properly.

But the comic got real point because there was other thread and women dicussed dating and man the crap they deal with makes you wonder they even bother.

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2 points

Yet I read other thread were women bitched and men acknowledge that we just miss signs when they interested. Its a no win situation.

People who can’t communicate probably wouldn’t make good partners in the first place.

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19 points
*

The answer is to flip this psychology/narrative that men have to be the ones to initiate and women are to be demure and play hard to get. Women should be approaching men more and men should be approaching women less.

Also, men need to have more platonic relationships with women and shouldn’t only be interested in, approach and talk to a woman because they want to have sex with them.

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-10 points

Have you considered being upfront and honest about your feelings? Why are you trying to piece together signals instead of just saying you’re interested?

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4 points

Harassment law suits mostly. And pepperspray.

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11 points

What made you think they’re not being upfront and honest about their own feelings?

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-2 points

That they desctibe themselves as trying to decipher signals. If they said upfront that they were interested and asked how the woman felt they would presumably get some kind of answer. Ghosting is a pretty clear signal too.

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-18 points

You are the person in this comic.

Also another common third panel would be: not taking no for an answer and pursuing.

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4 points

@li10@feddit.uk : “I get where they’re coming from, but it can be annoying…”

The person in the comic: “Stupid fat bitch slut!”

Yeah seem about the same

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4 points

This exact kind of situation does happen all the time. I don’t believe it’s a majority of men at all, but even if it’s a small percentage, that’s still a lot because of the magnitude of their actions. Even if it’s only a 5% chance that rejecting a guy is going to cause them to go completely off the rails, you’re still not going to want to take that chance because there’s nothing in it for you, and in those 5% of cases it’s going to be extremely upsetting, or in some cases, actually physically dangerous to you.

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8 points

Ghosting is also another issue that’s honestly just disrespectful.

While that can be annoying, if somebody’s ghosting you, that’s just a signal to move on, yeah? You probably don’t want a relationship with somebody who can’t communicate, anyway.

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4 points

It’s a shitty signal because it is just not replying to you and not a specific signal on its own. Could be for a bunch of reasons so you’ll have to guess that they’re ghosting you. It takes a while and even then you might not be sure.

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-2 points

It is a clear signal, it says very clearly and in no uncertain terms they don’t want to talk to you.

Your need for “closure” or whatever doesn’t matter.

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21 points

vague signals

If a woman gives me vague signals it’s a sign that she’s not right for me. Everything other than a “hell yes” is a no. Which is fine, I’m okay with being alone. But I’m not going to chase someone who hints that they’re into me, because I’m too damn old for that shit.

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2 points

Also, don’t take the disrespect personally. Especially if it’s someone new in your life, they don’t know you deeply enough for that to be a personal thing.

It’s just the game she’s decided is necessary for her safety. It might be perceivable as disrespectful, but security procedures often are. Like if you went to your friend’s house and they demanded to search you for weapons that might seem disrespectful.

But you’re not friends with this person ghosting you. They don’t know who you are. And in some environments, when someone unknown to you comes to your house you pat them down for weapons, even if it diminishes the hospitality.

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1 point

Exactly, I don’t blame them at all for anything. They don’t know me, I barely know them. If they don’t want to talk to me I have all you randos who reply to my comments. But I’m not gonna chase somebody who wants to get away. My biggest turn-on is someone who really, really wants me.

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7 points

Everything other than a “hell yes” is a no.

This must be said more frequently. This is the correct attitude. You may be alone longer, but you haven’t terrorized anybody. It’s a net win.

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0 points

I don’t think it’s me terrorizing people when they give me clear answers.

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1 point

I feel like signals of interest are being conflated with Consent/approval of a date here

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6 points

Ghosting is also another issue that’s honestly just disrespectful.

Maybe it’s because I’m a zoomer, but ghosting for me is just kind of expected. It’s mildly frustrating to encounter someone who doesn’t really reciprocate your feelings or what have you, and it’s maybe more disrespectful if it happens like, after the second or third date, but if someone ghosts you after the first date, I don’t really think it matters that much. Certainly, I’d rather not have to confront it than have them tell me that they’re not interested. That’s not really a satisfying answer, “they’re not interested”, right. It makes you want to ask “why”, but realistically they’re not going to be able to give you a reasonable, realistic, actionable answer. They’re just gonna be pulling stuff outta their ass. So I don’t really care all that much, I don’t think it matters.

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20 points

It’s also a bit like the job market in some professions. The good ones are more likely to be taken, so you have a magnifying effect on people who tend not to have successful relationships.

People are not very effective communicators.

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3 points
*

Girl: Sorry, but I’m not interested.

Guy: Stupid fat bitch slut!

Who responds like that? OP go touch some grass, lol.

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-1 points

You need to touch grass and talk to more women if you don’t know that most women have experiences exactly like this.

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-1 points

I think perhaps you do. None of my friends have ever been talked to this way. In what kind of backwards shit hole do you live?

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11 points

You’re not a woman I’m guessing

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-4 points
*

I don’t have to be a woman to know that men generally don’t respond like that. This is silly.

I’ve never seen a man respond like that to being rejected, ever.

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10 points

Do many men hit on you? Are you smaller than them? If not, that could be why you don’t see it happen.

Of course most men don’t respond this way. But of those people who respond this way, most are men.

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4 points

Men don’t. Boys do. All the fucking time.

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1 point

This is so common. We don’t really tend to discuss it really cause it kind of harsh to be public about rejections, but it happens a lot.

I had a guy ask me out a few years ago, I really delicately explained I wasn’t interested, and he took it really well and we had a hug. I told everyone about that for years because of how surprising it was.

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0 points

Yeah this is the dumbest comic I’ve ever seen. An absurd characterisation of reality. I thought it was satire at first but the comments seem to be taking it seriously. There are surely assholes out there but to only this is a regular occurrence is some legbeard basement-dwelling incel nonsense.

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8 points

Are people with short tempers more likely to get angry at people who are bigger than them, or smaller than them? Smaller, of course.

And there you have it. That explains the entire comic. Both women and men can have short tempers, but it’s way easier for a dude to scream at a woman and not end up dead. So it happens.

This is why they say that, while It’s not all men, it’s almost only men. Because men are bigger and it’s safer for them to be angry and act immature.

So the stereotype is valid. Don’t get butthurt unless you act like the guy in the comic.

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7 points
*

I understand what you are saying, and I don’t want to invalidate your concerns. I can see now that this comic resonates with women more than it would with a man.

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2 points

A somewhat small minority of men do actually act like that and thus it is assumed that all men are definitely going to act like that so they don’t have to risk danger.

It sucks horribly for both sexes but unlikely to be a better solution really

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1 point

Yeah, this comic could reflect the feelings of women who were unlucky enough to meet such outrageously bad people, or at least have the fear of meeting such a person.

But to say that this is the rule is, I feel, a stretch.

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