122 points

I get where they’re coming from, but it’s still not great being a guy and only getting vague signals that you’re trying to piece together. Ghosting is also another issue that’s honestly just disrespectful.

While it may ultimately be those man children who ruin it for everyone, some upfront honesty is generally very appreciated.

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52 points

While it might feel rough for you, it’s worth remembering that a lot of women have faced very real threats of violence for their upfront honesty.

If you’re only getting vague signals then maybe that’s the sign that she’s not fully into you.

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67 points
*

I feel like this is very dismissive and also ignores that lots of relationships do inevitably start with vague signals.

“Yeah, well, women have it worse so your feelings are irrelevant and it’s okay if they ghost you.”

As I said in my original comment, I get it. But it doesn’t take away from the fact that it’s a difficult situation for men.

Being dismissive of men’s feelings and not letting them talk about how dating is difficult for them isn’t helping anyone.

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34 points

I didn’t intend to be dismissive and if my response sounded that way then I apologise.

I agree it’s difficult to be on the receiving end of vague signals, but my perspective is if there’s any annoyance or frustration it should be directed at the violent/angry men who have caused women to feel unsafe.

Helping women feel safer by tackling the violence and misogyny directed at them by men will benefit everyone.

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22 points

It’s also dismissive of the fact that a lot of women give vague signs as their signs of interest. It’s really just a damned if you do or don’t situation. Either you interpret the vague signals as disinterest and move on, or you read them as a potential go ahead and you’re a dick.

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14 points

I think there’s three main reasons for vague signals.

  1. They legitimately don’t know how they feel. Maybe they kind of like you but aren’t sure. Recommended: do not pursue. Find someone who is enthusiastic about you. Do you really want to spend your time with someone who can’t make decisions and doesn’t know how they feel? It’s exhausting.

  2. They are afraid or uncomfortable, and are trying to avoid upsetting you. Like the comic. Enough men will do just that or worse if they get rejected that being polite can seem safer, even if it makes me man feel like he’s getting mixed signals. You know you’re not like that, but they don’t. Recommended: same as above.

2b. You are talking to someone who can’t leave like a retail worker. Stop bothering the person who can’t tell you to fuck off.

  1. They aren’t thinking about you at all. Like one time they’re happy to go bowling with you but the next time they blow you off on biking. What gives?? Mixed signals?? Nah dude she just likes bowling.
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-17 points

I think one should be rather dismissive of “it would be easier for me if others engaged in behaviours that have resulted in their being abused”.

Your fucking convenience doesn’t come before their sense of safety.

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10 points

Yeah, for men the likely worst case scenario is embarrassment, women can get straight-up beaten or murdered

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0 points

If by “embarrassment” you mean “getting arrested or your entire career and life ruined by sexual harassment accusations because you accidentally made someone uncomfortable”. Don’t act as if men are giving up dating in record numbers over “embarrassment”. It’s disingenuous. They’re giving up because guys like the one in the comic cause women to view them all as “creeps”.

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5 points

Yet I read other thread were women bitched and men acknowledge that we just miss signs when they interested. Its a no win situation. Man glad met my wife on a dating app and we communicated properly.

But the comic got real point because there was other thread and women dicussed dating and man the crap they deal with makes you wonder they even bother.

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19 points
*

The answer is to flip this psychology/narrative that men have to be the ones to initiate and women are to be demure and play hard to get. Women should be approaching men more and men should be approaching women less.

Also, men need to have more platonic relationships with women and shouldn’t only be interested in, approach and talk to a woman because they want to have sex with them.

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2 points

Yet I read other thread were women bitched and men acknowledge that we just miss signs when they interested. Its a no win situation.

People who can’t communicate probably wouldn’t make good partners in the first place.

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21 points

vague signals

If a woman gives me vague signals it’s a sign that she’s not right for me. Everything other than a “hell yes” is a no. Which is fine, I’m okay with being alone. But I’m not going to chase someone who hints that they’re into me, because I’m too damn old for that shit.

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7 points

Everything other than a “hell yes” is a no.

This must be said more frequently. This is the correct attitude. You may be alone longer, but you haven’t terrorized anybody. It’s a net win.

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1 point

I feel like signals of interest are being conflated with Consent/approval of a date here

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0 points

I don’t think it’s me terrorizing people when they give me clear answers.

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2 points

Also, don’t take the disrespect personally. Especially if it’s someone new in your life, they don’t know you deeply enough for that to be a personal thing.

It’s just the game she’s decided is necessary for her safety. It might be perceivable as disrespectful, but security procedures often are. Like if you went to your friend’s house and they demanded to search you for weapons that might seem disrespectful.

But you’re not friends with this person ghosting you. They don’t know who you are. And in some environments, when someone unknown to you comes to your house you pat them down for weapons, even if it diminishes the hospitality.

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1 point

Exactly, I don’t blame them at all for anything. They don’t know me, I barely know them. If they don’t want to talk to me I have all you randos who reply to my comments. But I’m not gonna chase somebody who wants to get away. My biggest turn-on is someone who really, really wants me.

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20 points

It’s also a bit like the job market in some professions. The good ones are more likely to be taken, so you have a magnifying effect on people who tend not to have successful relationships.

People are not very effective communicators.

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8 points

Ghosting is also another issue that’s honestly just disrespectful.

While that can be annoying, if somebody’s ghosting you, that’s just a signal to move on, yeah? You probably don’t want a relationship with somebody who can’t communicate, anyway.

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4 points

It’s a shitty signal because it is just not replying to you and not a specific signal on its own. Could be for a bunch of reasons so you’ll have to guess that they’re ghosting you. It takes a while and even then you might not be sure.

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-2 points

It is a clear signal, it says very clearly and in no uncertain terms they don’t want to talk to you.

Your need for “closure” or whatever doesn’t matter.

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6 points

Ghosting is also another issue that’s honestly just disrespectful.

Maybe it’s because I’m a zoomer, but ghosting for me is just kind of expected. It’s mildly frustrating to encounter someone who doesn’t really reciprocate your feelings or what have you, and it’s maybe more disrespectful if it happens like, after the second or third date, but if someone ghosts you after the first date, I don’t really think it matters that much. Certainly, I’d rather not have to confront it than have them tell me that they’re not interested. That’s not really a satisfying answer, “they’re not interested”, right. It makes you want to ask “why”, but realistically they’re not going to be able to give you a reasonable, realistic, actionable answer. They’re just gonna be pulling stuff outta their ass. So I don’t really care all that much, I don’t think it matters.

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4 points

This exact kind of situation does happen all the time. I don’t believe it’s a majority of men at all, but even if it’s a small percentage, that’s still a lot because of the magnitude of their actions. Even if it’s only a 5% chance that rejecting a guy is going to cause them to go completely off the rails, you’re still not going to want to take that chance because there’s nothing in it for you, and in those 5% of cases it’s going to be extremely upsetting, or in some cases, actually physically dangerous to you.

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-10 points

Have you considered being upfront and honest about your feelings? Why are you trying to piece together signals instead of just saying you’re interested?

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11 points

What made you think they’re not being upfront and honest about their own feelings?

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-2 points

That they desctibe themselves as trying to decipher signals. If they said upfront that they were interested and asked how the woman felt they would presumably get some kind of answer. Ghosting is a pretty clear signal too.

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4 points

Harassment law suits mostly. And pepperspray.

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-18 points

You are the person in this comic.

Also another common third panel would be: not taking no for an answer and pursuing.

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4 points

@li10@feddit.uk : “I get where they’re coming from, but it can be annoying…”

The person in the comic: “Stupid fat bitch slut!”

Yeah seem about the same

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41 points

Young fellas; as a not so young fella who some say used to fuck: Don’t be a dick while thinking with your dick.

It’s that easy. You be you, be whatever you’re interested in, and just use your goddamn eye balls to read if the person is uncomfortable. If they are, smile and fuck off king. Keep it going; don’t be a dick and watch that aura work and that dick get wet.

But remember, you have to genuinely not be a dick. Be yourself, be assertive or not, there’s someone (many someones even) for everyone and never mind the bullshit rules 1 and 2 you self-deluded fucks.

Don’t. Be. A. Dick.

You’ll be happier, the people around you will be happier, and you will fuck and feel good about it while making others feel good about it. Simple secret.

Don’t. Be. A. Dick.

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21 points

Yeah as a woman who gets plenty of women. Women want to fuck too. If the lady you’re hitting on isn’t reciprocating that’s cool find one who is.

Also your mental and emotional shit being together is way more attractive than it has any right to be. I’m not kidding, I’m moderately attractive but the fact that I can take no for an answer, clean my bathroom, and introspect on my emotions does wonders with the women already attracted to me.

Remember you aren’t gonna turn a no into a yes, but you can turn a yes into a no or a no into a restraining order.

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I’m also a not-so-young dude - forgotten generation - and honestly I don’t remember guys being like this. At least, not to women’s faces. Being rejected sucks and is a hit to your self-image, so there was the occasional after-the-fact, booze-fueled name-calling while among the guys, but to must of us, being rejected was something we were embarrassed about and didn’t advertise by sharing.

Our generations - boomers, gen-x - are selfish, greedy, and short sighted. OTOH, from survey of N=1 (my wife) getting this sort of response from men wasn’t a concern.

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7 points

I mean there is also a massive amount of underreporting of sexual violence from that time and if you were born a man then there’s a good chance that if you were respectful you may have never been in the room where someone was getting assaulted or harassed. That’s not your fault, I’m glad you might not have been one of the shitty people to hurt others, but I’m pretty sure this shit has been happening a long time.

coming from a no-so-old dude who believes in respect and vibing.

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Rape is another matter. Rape has been prevelant and underreported since, well, forever; and I doubt the rates of rape have gone down. In fact, since the definition of rape has been increasingly broadened, sexual violence crime rates have almost certainly been increasing.

The meme, and myself, were not talking about rape, or inequality, or being not being able to vote. I was only talking about women today being increasingly afraid to turn down men.

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2 points

Why would you remember guys being like this if you’re not a woman? Obviously you would not experience this situation if you were never in this situation because you’re a man. This interaction is going to happen where you don’t see them. Just ask some women around you if they’ve ever been scared by the response of a man they rejected. You’ll find that the majority of women have.

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sigh

If you look back, I mentioned my highly scientific survey, which consisted my of asking my wife. Whence comes my observation.

My point has been that I’m betting that the age group of the women you ask is significant. It’d be an interesting study.

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1 point

Being rejected sucks and is a hit to your self-image

A hit to your self-esteem maybe but you look all the better if you handle it nicely. If only guys understood that concept.

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This has a lot of the energy of: “have you tried just not being depressed?”

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1 point
*

Let me preface this by saying that I’m old. 

I was out for a long run yesterday. Playing the Hype Running List on Spotify. Enjoying most of the songs/artists being played thwre, eg, RATM, Beastie Boys, even some older stuff.

One song I was a bit meh about was The Boys Are Back In Town by Thin Lizzie. But this time, the lyrics made me stop and have a wtf moment. Here’s what I’m referring to:

You know that chick that used to dance a lot Every night she’d be on the floor, shakin’ what she’s got Man, when I tell you she was cool, she was red-hot I mean, she was steamin’

And that time over at Johnny’s place Well, this chick got up and she slapped Johnny’s face Man, we just fell about the place If that chick don’t wanna know, forget her

And I was like “hold up, are they saying what I think they’re saying?” Like, why would she slap his face? And why would you guys be dismissive of her and cool with Johnny?

Being hot/attractive doesn’t give you license to assault someone. So fuck off with that shit.

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26 points
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Deleted by creator
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26 points

Seriously, all the same ‘plays’ too:

  • lol rofl you think I was actually asking?
  • you’re ugly anyway
  • (if the rejection is based on you already being in a relationship) she’s ugly, you’ll never find someone as hot as me
  • (if you’re single) you’re gay/you’re a f*ggot
  • (slur related to your race, more common if the rejected is of a different race)
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9 points

Seems like you speak out of experience. Sorry for you. It’s sad that so many people forget how to treat each other respectfully.

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3 points

Mine and friends, yes. I appreciate the sympathy. I’m with the woman of my dreams now, though, so I’m optimistic I’ll never be exposed to it again. :)

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22 points

Thank you. This is just a reaction shitty people can have regardless of gender. If their fragile ego can’t handle a rejection they go to anger and insults immediately. So bizarre.

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2 points

“Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them.”

There’s a reason Margaret Atwood was the person who pointed this out.

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-1 points

Classic Margaret.

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-15 points

Oh no, emotions! I sure hope there aren’t some damning statistics about how many women die for saying no.

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7 points

There aren’t?

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-15 points
*

One thing women does that men don’t… Is that they remember every single time you did something dumb, and they will use that as ammunition in every fight.

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14 points

First, this is not exclusive to women. Men can and do do this. Second, if that’s your experience then you need to hang around with better women. My wife does not do this, even in the very rare instances that we’ve ever had a fight about something. Probably because she’s a normal, mature adult who recognizes that people, including me, make mistakes now and then.

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-6 points

Of course. Not all women will do this. Your wife doesn’t do it, that’s great. But we all have different experiences in life. Everyone gets treated differently. So all these discussions are is about our subjective experiences.

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2 points

You’re an idiot if you think men don’t do that too.

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1 point

That can be. That doesn’t kill you, though.

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1 point

None of this kills you

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-4 points
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Deleted by creator
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23 points

Unironically women should be able to say no instead of just ghosting nonstop, just say literally anything. Communication benefits both sides

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11 points

yeah, would be nice, but won’t happen when there’s such a big chance the guy might snap and atrack them. obviously women aren’t stupid and quickly learn to avoid being atracked.

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1 point

How often do these attacks happen in real life? I am genuinely curious about the statistics and occurrences as I have daughters and want them to be safe.

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4 points

I would say you want them to be prepared for people that won’t take no for an answer in a variety of situations. Understanding boundaries and when people will push and manipulate them, this is a real good skill to have in life in general as well. It doesn’t hurt to have a repertoire in self-defense. But yeah, it happens fairly often if you aren’t assertive and often enough even if you are.

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3 points

1 in 2 women will experience some form of sexual harassment during their lifetime. This ranges from verbal harassment, like in the comic, to stalking, doxxing, assault, rape, and in rare cases even murder.

1 in 4 women will experience sexual assault—that is, rape or attempted rape—during their lifetime.

Keep in mind these are reported statistics. Also keep in mind that the more serious issues usually are perpetrated by someone the woman knows.

Something else to mention: 1 in 26 men reported sexual assault. While women do make up the overwhelming number of cases, men can be victims too. The main difference is women are far more likely to be physically abused or killed.

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10 points

But also that implies women aren’t giving reasons or saying to back off and those are just being ignored or twisted. Do some women ghost? Yes I’m certain. Is every ghosting you hear a man talk about actually a ghosting? No I’m very certain because I recently had a friend go through this where she kept telling a guy that she’s not interested in ways that were trying to be nice about it as he’s an emotionally unstable gun nut and he just didn’t get it until she point blank told him never to reach out to her again, never to speak to her again, and then had a male friend say the same.

The whole thing reminded me of the missing missing reasons

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1 point

By ghosting do you mean one time they don’t respond and you move on with your life, or do you mean you reach out multiple times and they don’t respond?

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3 points

You can pretty quickly determine when you’ve been blocked, that’s how most people ghost.

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3 points

Blocking and ghosting are pretty clear “no” then?

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-10 points

No, woman have to be passive-aggressive, because there are so many psychotic men! It’s like you didn’t even read the comic or something.

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4 points

Are you being sarcastic? Because there are. It doesn’t take a majority to make it make women scared to be honest, just a few percentage and a few really bad experiences will make you scared.

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3 points

In what other circumstances would that be OK?

Say, if I were attacked a few times by the same minority, would it be okay for me to look at any person of said minority as a potential attacker?

Actually, let’s combine both things - let’s say I’m a woman who has been sexually harrsed by a minority a few time, would it be okay for me to view all males from said minority as potential sexual harassers?

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20 points
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Deleted by creator
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15 points

I’m a dude and I would love a world where women feel safe to be open with their boundaries. This comic nails it in that the problem isn’t women, it’s other men.

Patriarchal society doesn’t just hurt women, it hurts men too.

Any guys reading this- we don’t have to be the problem, in fact we are part of the solution. We are not useless, we are not supposed to just shut up and listen, we are supposed to be role models for the next generation. We have work to do, and when everyone benefits, we will benefit too. This isn’t a zero sum game.

I’m an educator, and I try to teach the girls that men don’t need to be feared, and teach the boys not to be men to be afraid of. It’s my job to show the boys that there is an alternative masculinity to what Andrew Tate prescribes.

If anyone wants a good YouTube male role model, I suggest John Green. I want more men who can recite Emily Dickinson and be open with their emotions in healthy ways.

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4 points
*

There’s a flip side to this. And full disclosure, I’m a guy trying to be part of the solution.

The flip is that guys are assumed to be dangerous. That’s the default. And yeah, some guys are dangerous, but imagine if every time you met someone new they flinched back when you tried to shake their hand. Every. Single. Time. Would you continue to try to shake hands? Or would you shy away from meeting new people?

Now, obviously that example is an extreme. Virtually no one has that happen, but we see similar communicated all the time. Women crossing the street because they don’t want to walk in front of a guy. People suspicious of a man at a park just watching his kid. Etc.

I’m not saying women don’t have a right to feel nervous, or even that they are wrong to feel the way they do. I’m just pointing out that being treated like I could explode at any moment wears on my soul. And being told “this isn’t about you” really doesn’t change much about how it makes me feel.

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4 points

That’s a very real experience, and I have experienced that too. As a male teacher, I have often been seen with suspicion. As just a tall guy who has some self awareness, I can sense that I can be seen as a potential threat. It’s exhausting.

But remember, it’s not women’s fault. It’s the fault of asshole guys that bought into a shit idea of what masculinity is and taught women to be on guard.

The fact is the boys are not alright. They are being outperformed in school, and in all demographics except the elite, there is a drop in real wealth among men when women are climbing. This is especially true for men of color. If there is a failure of progressive change in the 2000s, it’s not giving the boys a path forward beyond “no means no”.

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0 points

This sure sounds like an internalised version of “you’re one of the good ones”. It’s cool man, don’t let bigots gaslight you into feeling bad about your gender.

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-1 points

I’m not sure you’re understanding the situation. Imagine if 1 out of 10 dogs you approached were aggressive, would you feel happy around dogs? Or would you protect yourself?

You’re fully aware that women are taking actions are protecting themselves, so why are you taking this personally? Why not just be understanding?

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15 points

Nothing worse than (gender, sex) giving their opinions on something.

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6 points

male men

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The people who come every day but Sunday to bring me bills?

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1 point

Karl Malones

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1 point
*

mlen (tbh I didn’t wasn’t sure which one to use here and didn’t really want to start that discussion lol)

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10 points
*

lol @ the schmucks feeling threatened by men giving their opinions or feel the need to preemptively post personal attacks.

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1 point
*
Deleted by creator
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0 points
*

why women feel unsafe

How are you unsafe on the internet? Are you willingly giving out personal details to anyone messaging you? Is someone sending you DMs where they convince you to hit yourself? Or are you just worried about viruses?

you literally came at me with a attack calling me a schmuck

Ah yes, the constant fear of being called a schmuck. Frequently confused with the constant fear of actually being a schmuck, the main difference being that the former is image-related, while the latter usually implies some form of self-awareness. Also sometimes confused with the fear of an actual attack instead of just name-calling, by people who are so sure they’re right that they can’t spend the two seconds to search for statistics.

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8 points

Clearly you’ve not yet read my book ‘Angry Men Are A Myth: why everyone should stop telling me to get therapy’

Every copy comes with a discount code for 5% off a Thinking Mans Fedora!

Remeber kids, the best devil’s advocates shop exclusively from NotAllMen LLC.

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-1 points

Ok, white knight.

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-2 points
*

Thinking you don’t look stupid mocking people for not appreciating sex-based stereotyping and assuming is the real “lol”.

The extra dumb part is that the kind of guys in the first panel, are invariably not the same guys in the third panel, but the comic is desperate to ‘expose’ hypocrisy by pretending they are. That’s another reason for the male frustration in here–it’s all coming from ‘first panel’ guys, who all know they’re not ‘third panel’ guys.

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